Chinese citizenship. US citizenship. The two choices before my husband sway back and forth in my mind like a pendulum. One day I agree with my husband’s choice to remain a Chinese citizen. The next day I want him to reconsider. But most days, I’m in the middle of this dilemma.
This isn’t an issue for most Chinese-foreigner couples, because so many Chinese dream of having a foreign passport — for a number of reasons:
Travel. For Chinese nationals, visas are almost certainly required for travel to other countries. And those visas often have hefty demands: work unit approval, proof of real estate ownership, financial records, proof of 50,000 RMB saved in a bank account for at least six months, etc. Many visas also require in-person interviews, such as a US visa (if it’s your first time applying for that specific visa).
Hukou liberation. Hukou is a frustrating system of residency permits in China, because not all hukous are the same. In general, “city resident” hukous have better pensions and health insurance than “peasant” (countryside resident) hukous. And some “city resident” hukous are better than others. If you have a Shanghai hukou, your child has a much higher chance of getting in. In 2007, 65 percent of 18 to 22 year olds with a Shanghai hukou were attending college (compared to about 19 percent overall in China). A Shanghai hukou has other benefits such as easy visas to Hong Kong (not always so in the interior), and better health insurance, valid in some of the countries top hospitals. If you live in Shanghai without a Shanghai hukou, you can’t get these benefits — including sending your kid to city schools. And it can be hard to change, unless you get accepted to college or grad school, have your employer do it, or make an investment.
Taxes/Benefits. In some countries, such as the US, estate tax laws can be more restrictive towards alien legal residents. US green card holders, for example, only get half the Social Security Benefits of a US citizen.
Prestige. Foreign passports and green cards are a status symbol in China, suggesting wealth and success. Most Chinese moms and dads love to brag how their son or daughter is now a “real American.”
However, once you get a foreign passport, kiss your Chinese passport goodbye. The Chinese government does not recognize dual citizenship, period.
Because of this, my husband is reluctant to change. He is proud to be Chinese. Why should he need a visa to visit or work in the country where he was born and raised?
At another level, he considers throwing away Chinese citizenship harmful to his country. So many young talented young people turn in their Chinese passports for another, only to reside abroad — and not make a meaningful contribution to China. China’s brain drain is a great loss.
And to him, leveraging a foreign passport for prestige is reprehensible. Dropping the word “green card” or “US passport” in conversation — as if it were a BMW or Mercedes. Listing citizenship on a university departmental website, just to show off how many foreign passport holders they have. These, and more, remind him just how cheapened Chinese citizenship — and the China brand — has become.
He wants to stay with his US green card. It’s fine, since he’s attending school in the US. Yet, if we move back to China to live, he’d have to abandon his green card because holders cannot reside permanently outside of the US.
Why should I care now? Because these few years, while he is in school, may be the only chance he will ever have to get US citizenship. If he changes his mind after our move to China, we’d have to start the immigration process all over again (I’m not a lawyer, but I imagine the US doesn’t look favorably on cases where a green card was previously abandoned).
When I bring up the issue of travel (“you’ll have to apply for visas to go everywhere, even back to the US”), he says it won’t matter because he’ll have enough money to apply, and will have a secretary take care of the hassles and paperwork. When I mention hukou, he says money and a good job will make it irrelevant. I haven’t discussed taxes and benefits, but I’m sure he doesn’t care right now.
Then there is my irrational, emotional connection to this issue — I did most of the work to help him immigrate. Collecting evidence, filling out paperwork, studying the issue, traveling to consulates, filing for adjustment of status, crossing my fingers during his interview in Guangzhou. It’s hard to let go.
And it is hard for my husband to let go of his Chinese passport. Ultimately, I suspect it is Chinese pride that keeps him hanging on to that passport. He should be proud to be a Chinese. Still, does citizenship really decide how much you love a country?
China’s brain drain is not a mindless exodus away from the country. Many more Chinese would keep their passports — if they could have a better life in China. But many cannot. Like my friend Tony, a Hunanese guy getting his pharmacology PhD here. Doctors in China often get low salaries, and lower respect, so returning would mean he wasted four years studying abroad. Tony doesn’t have a US passport yet, but I’m sure it’s on his life agenda.
Your passport doesn’t decide your destiny, either. Many Chinese with foreign passports still make great contributions to their country — in China, and abroad.
Personally, I wish China didn’t force us to choose. Maybe they’ll change the rules on dual citizenship before we move, but I’m not holding my breath.
In the meantime, the pendulum still swings back and forth. Sometimes I agree with my husband, sometimes I don’t. But whatever we agree, when we move back to China, we must live with our decision — perhaps forever.
Nevertheless, I have one comforting thought. It’s not about where you are, or what your passport is. It’s what you’re doing — in our case, for China — that really counts.
What’s your take on this issue? Is it worth it to keep Chinese citizenship? Would a foreign passport be the better deal? Or does any of this matter at all?
Note: Thanks to Susan for suggesting this topic!
Possibly Related Posts:
First: Nice blog!
Second: I know many Chinese with dual citizenship… your husband can have that to. As long as you don’t TELL the Chinese authorities your o.k. Here in Beijing I have meet a lot of Canadian/Chinese people with dual passports. I often ask them HOW they get away with this (I ask since me and my Chinese wife is having a baby) and the answer is always: DON´T TELL THEM! But when you travel always use one passport otherwise it might be a problem. So it´s up to your husband to decide wether he wants to tell them or not. But if you still has to choose I would recommend him to get the American citizenship, I can´t understand how he could ever think about not getting it…. If for some reason we couldn´t get dual for our kid we would absolutely choose my citizenship (Swedish) because all the benefits the kid would get, including the ability to live anywhere in Europe.
Anyway good luck from Michael in Beijing!
While I would never suggest anybody to break any law per se (wink, wink) I would agree with Michael that what the Chinese authorities don’t know won’t hurt them (much). To put it into perspective, another way to view the issue is that by acquiring dual citizenships, he is not betraying his Chinese heritage or China, but simply delaying the need of having to choose until, for whatever reasons, he has to, want to or is forced to do so by circumstances or by one government or another, being a day which I hope will never arrive for him.
In reality, the Chinese government knows that many of its citizens hold dual citizenships, but for economic, social and political reasons has so far not seen the need to force the issue, unless they are considered to have undertaken actions deemed “hostile to China”.
As a second generation Overseas Chinese, my experience and conclusion is that being Chinese is more than just a piece of paper and being Chinese dosen’t HAVE to exclude one from being something else either, whether as a husband or holding another citizenship. It most certaintly didn’t stop my grandfathers from returning to fight the Japanese or send aid to China when she needed it.
Today’s world is highly mobile and fluid, consequently so is an individual’s identity, irrespective of outmoded, but persistent societal or bureaucratic attempts through superficial labeling to pigeonhole us for their own convenience and purpose. What matters above all else is what one feels one is, whether it’s a unitary or composite identity, and whether one has the strength, conviction and breadth of view to uphold that what one has created for himself.
Best of luck and btw enjoy your blog
(PS apologies for sounding pompous or wordy, sometimes it’s tough to get away from one’s profession…)
@Michael and @Shirong,
Thanks so much for reading, and for your thoughtful comments! Hmmm, I may have to rethink this dilemma altogether.
Hi,
Another matter to consider, is the one child policy if you intend to live in China.
It was tolerated for mixed couples until recently but apparently not anymore.
Otherwise, not many countries accept dual citizenship, but as written before, the trick is NOT TO TELL the origin country.
Bye
“It was tolerated for mixed couples until recently but apparently not anymore.”
Hmm… strange.. the psb guys said we could have as many kids as we wanted to…. but only one could have a Chinese citizenship though. We checked this just two weeks ago…
Hi Michael,
I’m just reporting news I read (in French), here is a link :
http://www.la-croix.com/article/index.jsp?docId=2392251&rubId=1094
Apparently, the trend is only beginning and if one child is born in China, he will be automatically considered as Chinese.
Wow, stan — that’s pretty sobering news. Thanks for sharing this.
Then, as I understand the article, as long as both parents have foreign citizenship, the one-child policy should not be enforced.
Stan: I don´t want to argue with you but….
1. Children born to Chinese citizen in China or abroad has ALWAYS been considered Chinese unless any other citizenship is obtained that they know of they they will loose there Chinese one, this is nothing new…
2. French newspapers……. the public security bureau here in Beijing is 100% more reliable that a french newspaper, sorry but thats the fact, psb is the “gospel” when it comes to this matters, what they say is the law.
3. Non-Chinese can have as many children as they want to. They can never get a houko so there is no trouble.
4. Chinese citizen CAN in fact have more then one child, but it will cost you…..
5. the facts are that MANY MANY Chinese citizen outside of the big cities have 2-5! children… but they will never get a houko (houshold register) witch means they are in trouble later on in life. Many “farmers” here in Beijing have 2-3 kids in the open while Beijingers have to pay or give birth in secret if they want more kids. This to an enormous dismay of the local Beijingers…..
5. The article says that this applys to children born from mixed couples in China BUT…. the moment you have a foreign passport for your kid the Chinese citizenship is gone and there will be no fine…. So you can have (if you want to) one kid with a Chinese passport and ten with a foreign passport and no fines. If you register your kids birth at your embassy and get a paper on that and show that to the psb they will consider the kid foreign, this is also information I got from the psb. If the kid has that he won´t get a hoko said the officer clearly.
But if you try to get TWO kids a Chinese citizenship or forgets to register your kid at your embassy before you go to the psb THEN i guess it can happen as the article said.
Finally:
When we prepared for our kids houko we had to prepare a lot of papers. The security officer said, and i quote:
“This is only to ensure that there is no children since before. This is for hokou only. If you want children with foreign passport you can have as many as you want to, but no hokou”. (said with a Chinese accent ;,) )
Jocelyn: as I said: if the kid gets a foreign passport OR is registered to get one then there is no trouble. This is information straight from the psb.
My fiance is Chinese and I have also researched this one-child policy business recently. As Michael said, it seems in cases where one spouse is an overseas national you can have as many children as you want but only one may have Chinese hukou. Children with non-Chinese nationality in China do not qualify for free primary state education and tuition fees in good schools will be really expensive. There are lots of discussion threads on ShanghaiExpat website forum from couples facing the same decisions. I wish my boyfriend had been able to get UK passport while we lived in the UK. My work and residence permit in China was so easy to obtain but when he wants to go for a 2 week visit to the UK the paperwork is unbelievable (bank statements, letters from his company, letter from me, copies of my passport and visas, letters from my parents whose house we stay at, photos to prove the relationship etc)- 烦æ»äº†.
Hi Michael,
I won’t argue with you since I’m not living in China and have zero experience about this matter. Netherveless, I see several (non-exclusives) possibilities :
1 – The French report is false — or mistaken–, which is perfectly plausible (^^)’
2 – The French father in the article is ill-informed and doesn’t know how to register his child as a foreigner.
3 – The law –or its enforcement– is not the same everywhere in China.
@ Danni
I suggest you and your finace/husband go talk to a reputable Chinese solicitor in London’s or Manchester’s Chinatowns for professional advice regarding the dual nationality issue as well as those involving any future kiddies.
My experience is that they are much more likely than non-Chinese British or US solicitors/lawyers to understand the interaction between the Chinese-British/US legal system on citizenship law.
Best of luck.
@Michael,
Thanks for the clarification.
@stan,
#3 is plausible. It is true that the rules and regulations can be enforced differently in China. I have had this experience when getting notarized documents for my husband (it was actually easier to do it in his rural county than in Shanghai, if you can believe that).
@danni,
Thanks for sharing your experience. I have heard about the high tuition in China. Sorry that you have had such difficulties w/ getting your fiancee back over to the UK. As Shirong mentioned, it might make sense to talk to a lawyer w/ experience in this field. Good luck with everything, and wish you and your fiancee a happy life together!
@Shirong,
Thanks again for your helpful suggestions.
I agree with shirong. Being Chinese is much more than just a piece of paper. Just like any other country. I’ve met many foreigners who consider themselves Brazilian (even if they don’t have the passport) and we accept them as such.
Most countries do not accept dual citizenship, but there is a catch, it’s extremely hard to get that. My great-grandfather emigrated from Portugal to Brazil in the early XX century. a few years ago, my grandfather got his citizenship. Then my father. Now, I’ve applied for mine. There is a loophole in the nationality law that allows this to go on perpetually. This has nothing to do with the Brazilian law, Portugal considers me a national even though I feel Brazilian and will always identify myself as such.
To my understanding, the naturalisation process is different though (case of your husband, I believe). It requires you to give up one nationality and take the other. Maybe your children can have both nationalities. That would be cool But if your husband can get the American one without losing the Chinese one, go for it.
One topic that hasn’t been covered is “preparing for the worst.” What if there’s some big political event that causes it to be unsafe for you or your husband to remain in China? What if he somehow runs afoul of the government? These situations are unlikely, but I would rather be safe than sorry.
Hi Jocelyn,
I’m a Chinese senior in one of the best colleges in the US. Although my ultimate goal is to resettle back to China, I plan to go on to law school here, pass the bar test, and practice at least for a little while here in the US. But I have never considered getting a US citizenship at all. And the idea just seems even less and less appealing as the years go by. So here are my reasons:
1. Taxation. Contrary to your beliefs, a US citizenship may be a huge disadvantage on this matter. The U.S. is one of the only two nations in the world that tax its citizens income taxes, no matter where they are on earth (the other being the Philippines, the former US colony that copied this practice from the US). Even if you permanently reside in China, if you don’t file your taxes to the IRS, you’d be in big trouble. The US government tracks, or at least tries to track, all dollar transactions around the world. So if you are a citizen, those IRS thugs could tail you wherever you go. Of course, China is too far away for them to reach you. But the IRS can jump right back on your back, the minute you step onto American soil. So if you earn incomes in China as an American, there is a real good possibility that you would face double-taxation. In contrast, the Chinese authorities rarely bother to check into your overseas economic activities. Ask your husband if he’s ever paied a penny to the Chinese government from in the US.
2. Financial stability. China is the world’s biggest creditor nation. The US is the biggest debtor nation. If the nation balance books were averaged out to citizens, every Chinese has about $2000 in reserve, and growing, whereas the average American is about $50000 in debt, and growing. This huge debt burden of the US government will eventually have to be shouldered by its citizenry through taxation, inflation, or, God forbid, war. The long-term financial picture of the US is far bleaker than that of China. And the American society is just too deep in debt at every level: from national, through municipal, corporational, housewold, all the way down to individual. Banks (especially in certain European countries) has being denying services to all US citizens. It is still debatable whether the US dollar is severely over-priced. But few people would disagree that RMB is a severely under-valued currency. Which means it makes a lot more sense to make money in Chinese Yuan than in dollars– another good reason to stay Chinese and to go back to China. And If you make money in China, you want to avoid the IRS. So this also feeds back into the first argument.
3. Other benefits. I don’t know what kind of Hukou your husband holds, Jocelyn. I can see how it might be a strong incentive to change citizenship, if he’s from a poor rural area in a western province. But personally I happened to be lucky enough to be born into a good Hukou. I know very well that the public education and health care I got in China is a lot better than what people are getting here from their government, especially after I tutored some kids from a black neighborhood near my school. There is no way I will ever put my kids through the American public school system. Of course, private schools and private health services here are excellent. But as long as you have the money and/or the right connections, you get to enjoy those, irrespective of nationality. (I love my private college: 10% International undergrads, 50% International grads, Chinese communist trustee on the board and all that) So then what’s the point of a citizenship? By and large, I feel it’s much easier to live as a foreign citizen in a multi-cultural society like the US, than in a homogeneous nation like China. I shall elaborate on this point in the next section.
4. Irreversibility. America is a open and welcoming immigrant country. But China is the complete opposite. It’s traditionally been, to put it a bit strongly, a xenophobic, narcissistic, racist inbred empire that’s always building some great walls, tangible or intangible, to separate itself from the “barbarians”. (Hong Kong and Shanghai are very recent exceptions.) Even today, China is still closed to immigrants, and its citizenship is still strickly defined as purely Jus sanguinis rights, which is quite uncommon in the 21st century. Moreover, China is typically indifferent to any plight of its overseas cousins (let alone complete foreign strangers), even when they are Han Chinese linguistically, culturally, and by blood (case in point, the recent civil war in Burma, or the 1998 Jakarta Massacre). This may seem cruel and unfair. But the whole point of the policy is to let Chinese emmigrate out (b/c we have too many people), and to keep anyone from getting in (b/c we have too many people, and we are covert xenophobes). So once you lose your Chinese citizenship, it is virtually impossible to regain it, and none of your children will ever have it, either. Besides, let me remind you that it is just as impossible for US citizens to relinquish their US citizenship. So this whole process is absolutely irreversable. And given the history and traditions of these two countries, I just can’t see any significant policy change in the future. And, of course, breaking the law on such serious matter is never a good idea.
Anyways, I believe it’s only wise to side with a rising empire rather than a declining power, and particularly when you are native to the former and foreign to the latter.
One last thing: Have you ever heard of Jim Rogers, the American invester who immigrated into Singapore, and famously said, “If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia”? Check out his story, if you haven’t.
Though I agree that China is the rising power there is still A LOT to fix before that is a fact…. As a expat living in Beijing with a Chinese wigfe and a kid on it´s way I have to say somethings….
More than 200 million Chinese lives on LESS than 1 dollar per day…..
About 100 million Chinese can´t read or write…
Government corruption is probably among the worst in the world…. I have personal experience from that…. Who you know and what you can do for this person rules the day. This is a well known fact among most Chinese people, a true “empire” can´t live like this.
Some other things that Roadblock says maid me react a little:
Currency…. thy said on cctv a couple of days ago that the Chinese rmb (yuhan) will be less worth in the near future. I don´t know much about his but i only report on what they said in the tv-show.
Hospital care…….. well i´ts a joke. Sorry but it´s the truth. Sure it´s good and well when you (if your a Chinese citizen) FINALY get to meet the doctor, something that could take the mayor part of the day in the bigger hospitals in Beijing. I followed a pregnant friend to a local hospital for a checkup and we arrived there at 8 o´clock… 12.30 I had to go, i could n´t wait any longer…. THis and ALL Chinese hospitals that I have visited (around 10) was/is worn down to a level I have NEVER seen in Europe, never…. honestly it´s awful…. usually the waiting rooms is located near smelly, smelly toilets and they are full oh so full of people…. you can´t believe it… Even in so called “good hospital” like Beijing united hospital.
ALL Chinese people I have meet, I have only Chinese friends here in Beijing, would trade there passport to a n American one… Hehe, they ALL seems to hate China. One of my friends, who has lived in New York for 8 years always refer to China as: f-ckin China, stupid f-cking Chinese! I always argue with him though and claims that he is wrong. He always think i´m crazy who want´s to live in China.
China will probably replace USA in the future… but honestly that is far, far away as long as this problems still exists.
But don´t misunderstand me. I love China! I live here for a reason. People ask me why I don´t go back to EU or even move to America, I say because I think China is the future. I just hope that one day China will listen to the people who love her and don´t push it all away as foreigners “meddling in Chinas internal affairs”.
I understand your feeling about China. I was in Beijing this summer (on vacation) and I could feel some excitement about the rapid change of the country. I may be wrong but, I sensed that opportunities are everywhere in China, despite the corruption, the censorship, the dictatorship, despite the life and the people are very harsh (according to some friend living in Beijing).
About “foreigners meddling in Chinas internal affairsâ€, I think it is always difficult to hear a foreigner giving you lessons, especially if you are talking sensitive subjects… As you live in China, I’m sure you know that indirect suggestion is far more efficient than direct criticism.
Hello Michael,
I admit that many of your claims may very well be true, but I cannot see any relevance to the topic here. It is not my position that China is flawless, or superior to the US. So it looks as if you are only beating down your own strawman. If you are disagreeing with me on the long-term perspective of China and the US, it is still somewhat beside the point. And I have no intention to debate over that, because time will show whether you are right.
It did, however, strike me as a bit odd that you would chose to live in Beijing, in spite of your low opinion of your host country. For I would think that if what you said is both true and relevant, the reasonable person would have no choice but to flee from China immediately.
Nonethless, it might be good news if such pessimistic view on China were indeed as prevalent as you reported. Suppose everybody was as insightful as you are, and was just reasonable enough to take the only logical action (i.e. getting the hell out of that China sh*t-hole). Then we might have a good shot at getting that notorious one-child policy repealed, because we wouldn’t have any population problem any more. But unfortunately, that’s clearly not the case. So I guess the 1.3 billion Chinese are all either guilty of ostrichism, or too lazy and irrational to the take the steps necessary for leaving the country. Maybe you could take upon yourself the noble task of speading the truth in China, enlightening the Chinese populace blind to reality, and of persuading and motivating them to hurry out of their miserable homeland. Maybe you could even be so generous as to offer to all the Chinese emigrants your own country, wherever it may be. That way, China would have not only solved the problem of overpopulation, but also cleansed herself of political dissidents, religious fanatics, troublesome minorities, and all sorts of nasty, self-loathing traitor and sellout that pledge their allegiance by expedience. Wouldn’t that be lovely? So why don’t you start with your dear Chinese friends in Beijing? I for one would really appreciate your effort.
Roadblock: this is EXACTLY the reaction I was talking about… some Chinese people just can´t take ANY thing negative about their country… I feel really sad for you and I hope that one day you could join the rest of the world in having a realistic view of their own country….
“So why don’t you start with your dear Chinese friends in Beijing? I for one would really appreciate your effort.”
You just didn´t read what I wrought right? I said that I argue with him over this issue in fact i defend China to Chinese people more than most CHinese people do….
“I admit that many of your claims may very well be true, but I cannot see any relevance to the topic here. ”
Boy are you wrong…… how can a nation that has so many people who can´t even read or write, have truly corrupt regime become a “empire”?
Haha, I´m sorry but I think you are dreaming….
“It is not my position that China is flawless, or superior to the US.”
Really? “Dying Empire” dos that ring a bell? Everything your writing is full of contempt against USA….. You don´t meet my objections at all when I prove how wrong you are.
“It did, however, strike me as a bit odd that you would chose to live in Beijing, in spite of your low opinion of your host country.”
Hehe wrong again… it would n´t hurt you if you actually READ what I said and did n´t guess what I mean….
I said that I love China and I also said that China would do well to listen to it´s FRIENDS.
When Chinese people say they hate China they talk about the government, people who spit in the street, spit in the restaurants, crap on the streets, try to cheat you whenever you try to buy something, men constantly having affairs and so on. To me thats NOT China, thats SOME CHinese people behaving badly. If you thing Im wrong go to some normal Chinese forums and find out…..
“Suppose everybody was as insightful as you are, and was just reasonable enough to take the only logical action (i.e. getting the hell out of that China sh*t-hole).”
Well…. this is exactly whats happening… ever heard of the great “brain drain”, well educated Chinese people who is leaving their country and is not coming back…. google it for more info…. China daily has written a lot about it. And you yourself is evidence of it, you live yourself in USA right? Parents who have children living in USA is PROUD over the fact that their kids are American you know that? Have you ever been to China? Because you just don´t know what you are talking about….
I think your a funny guy… someone confront you with the truth and you becomes angry… Heheh you are funny guy I give you that!
Calm down, dude. I was just trying to put my two cents in on the dilemma that confronts Jocelyn regarding her husband’s citizenship. But then in response, you went off the topic and went on a diatribe against China. So I replied to point out your digression, and to express my disagreement. But now you’ve launched into a furious tirade against me personally, and brought out all the usual negative cliches about China. Whatever you say is uncharitable to your host nation, and completely irrelevant to the original blog post. What’s your problem?
Just chill out, will you?
Hejsan Michael
I wouldn’t take everything that is said on internet forums, whether it’s pro- or anti-China, very seriously. I’ve come across supposedly rabidly pro-China nationalist comments who later turn out to be anti-China/CCP Free-Tibet groups or pro-Taiwanese independence DPP groups etc. and anti-CCP comments who later turn out to be quite nationalistic. As for why that is the case, I’m sure you can surmise.
@ Shirong
I am curions how did you find out the “truth” later?
Roadblock: Hmm… who started to make it personal can be debated given you thought I should leave the country and your tone in the first place….but we should keep a civilized tone so I begin by apologizing if any of my words insulted you or anyone else. I did take offense from what you wrought and I stepped over the line because of that.
But just some things in all modesty:
“But then in response, you went off the topic and went on a diatribe against China.”
No I think your wrong. You lifted up some things were you thought China was better, hospitals as one example. I strongly disagree with you and that was the point I tried to make. I can´t find anything that I wrought as being anti Chinese, I did run it by my Chinese wife and she did n´t object at all. Most of the things you can see here in Beijing on a daly basis, is that “anti China”? Just look at some “reality shows” on Cctv and they will show a MUCH more “anti CHinese” picture. Would you take just as much offense if I was Chinese?
But maybe this is different from person to person? If someone scold or criticizes my country I really don’t object if I feel they have some truth to it. Just remember: what my Chinese friends say about China is NOT my opinion. I find myself defending China time and time again on different forums and among Some of my Chinese friends.
But that said: there are MANY expat that truly seems to despise China and the Chinese, I am NOT one of those. If that were the case why would I have a Chinese wife a kid coming?
I am constantly flabbergasted by how many people I meet in this country that is so disrespectful to their own country. I still, after living here for several years, can´t understand why. You can find this almost everywhere. One very recent example is the upcoming movie about Chinas 60 years as a republic. How? Well this “patriotic” movie has 21 Chinese born actors that has changed passport….. I other words: they thing its ok to make money in China but they don´t want to BE Chinese. Just to clarify; I think thats a shame. One other big group is the Chinese people who lives oversea, they constantly praise there new country at the expense of their old one. But maybe that is universal? Just like the emigrants to America put down Europe after leaving it.
“I wouldn’t take everything that is said on internet forums, whether it’s pro- or anti-China, very seriously.”
True, but It kind of confirms what my friends are saying.
As for the whole Tibet/Taiwan issue I wont comment that much. Of course they are parts of China, history, culture and so on proves it.
Michael, you know absolutely nothing about my identity, my family, or my personal history, other than that I go to college in the US. So please do not openly speculate or make presumptions. It is just ridiculous.
Clearly, you’ve make up your mind on a lot of things, many of which bear no relevance whatsoever to the discussion here . I’m not interested at all in changing all that. And what you say hardly interests me. So we are done talking.
For those of us who haven’t made up our minds about the future of China and the US, and are still pondering the idea of a new citizenship, here are a few youtube clips of some very smart Americans and Europeans talking about this issue. They have more credibility than I do, and are certainly much better at explaining economics. I thought about putting up statistics figures and articles on the economy, but I then guess that would just bore the hell out of everybody.
So here are the links. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4R4Scaoxcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRfpAAIjEek
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3Qefbt0n4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNAN-_Y4HAs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBGJ3MMseSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWpro3o0rT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pehpJdDEOVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEC48kL2eNc
@ Zictor
Before I go all metaphysical and ask you to define “the truth”, let’s just say that it is easier to find out if somebody is lying than it is to find “the truth”. You see, while they’re are not necessarily mutually exclusive, they are also very different things. So to discover the truth, you follow the lie to its end and the end of the lie never lies (pardon the pun, but I’m feeling clever and very pleased with myself today).
But before all that you need to recognise or identify the lie which takes knowledge, memory and reasoning. Experience helps, but not always necessary. It merely helps to elevate it to an art form. If you want to see this in action, I refer you to this thread, particularly in the discourse between Doc and JH and see how Doc expose JH’s lie:
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/05/flu-news-from-china-mexican-citizens-being-detained/
If you want to know more, become a legal or medical professional or join the security services, but then you’ll have to live with your own conscience.
Roadblock: since you are not man enough to write your own name I agree with you, we are done talking.
@ Michael
I think who and what you are and what is being said also affects what people say to you. Here’s a personal anecdote: My German girlfriend and I returned to China and was staying at a hotel in Beijing. One day she took a taxi alone and the driver was telling her how great things are and how China has changed so much for the better. A couple of days later I took a taxi with the same driver to meet my girlfriend who recognised him and guessed what, the same driver was bitching and complaining to me the whole trip about everything and how things are not what they used to be in the old days.
Ultimately, it’s call a “love-hate relationship” that happens every where. So welcome to humanity and all the contradictions that entails and where everyone thinks things could be worse or things could be better.
Personally, I feel that perspective is what matters most and so very often I don’t know what the fuss is all about.
I knoww people like roadblock well. Probably communist scum child. Partymama pay his school and now he say he loves China, this true not! WE normal China hate communist! Rich kid dont come to China! please stay and use your communist money there!
I am not a communist, nor am I rich.
In any event, who I am has nothing to do with the merit or demerit of my message. If you think I lack credibility or suspect my motives, that is fine. I do not care whether you believe me or not.
Roadblock:
pack up and come back home,sonny. China and 1.3billion [edited out] are all counting on you now.
[moderator's note: I welcome vigorous debate -- but won't tolerate hate talk.]
@the tank man
actually, perhaps it’s you that should be packing up. while I welcome vigorous debate, I cannot say the same for hate speech. I edited your comment
and, should you post a similar one again, I will edit it immediately.UPDATE: comments are now closed.This comment came in today on the site from caroline:
NOTE: I moved this b/c it was not posted in the correct thread.
UPDATE: Duh. I realized I had locked this thread — which is why caroline couldn’t post here. I just unlocked it. Post away! (Just no hate speech, okay?)
I think it is a very bad idea to ask for advice on doing things illegal. And I for one will certainly not advice any one to do anything that is prohibited by law. As I understand the Chinese nationality law, you already renounced your Chinese citizenship, the motion you took up your current British citizenship. You are a Chinese national no more. You may only enter China as a British citizen carrying British passport with a valid Chinese visa. Travelling with a void passport, or entering China without a visa is illegal. So you must not do it.
Chinese nationality law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality_Law_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
Take a look at Article 3 and Article 9. They are very explicit. Do not try to break the law.
I’m not absolutely sure about it, but I’m fairly certain that your husband can keep his US green card while living in a foreign country as long as he returns to the US for a short stay every 6 months.
When my wife first moved to the US she thought she’d just keep her Chinese citizenship for as long as possible. Now she thinks it’s just easier to get her US citizenship when she’s eligible (she’s seen a lot of nice jobs that require citizenship).
If China recognized dual citizenship, I’d have no problem with my wife hanging on to it. Maybe they’ll reconsider that policy in the near future.
@Chinamatt,
Thanks so much for the comment!
What you said about the green card is true. But it can be risky if, like us, you’re looking at moving permanently back to China. Keeping that green card is contingent on proving you still have your permanent residence in the US, and all of those things that demonstrate it. That means if your situation looks suspicious, someone at border control can stop you and you could get your green card revoked. It could also just be a whole lot of hassle (demonstrating you’re still a resident of the US through things like bank accounts, maintaining a home here, etc), and I’m not sure either of us want that.
But for you and your wife, since you are going to live permanently in the US, US citizenship might make sense. Especially if it means your wife gets preference for certain jobs.
P.S.: Like your website — I found your journal a few months ago and was thoroughly intrigued.
Wow, a lot of comments here. My wife is Chinese (she’s a college professor here in the U.S. now) and we dealt with this very issue back in 2002. Basically, assuming you are primarily living in the U.S., the decision of whether or not to give up your Chinese citizenship is one between the practical and the emotional side of things. There is no real reason to keep the Chinese citizenship other than for emotional purposes. The reasons for switching to an American citizenship are mostly practical (visa’s and travel being a biggie). My wife decided to drop her Chinese citizenship after being in the U.S. for about 10 years (and married for 7) when we wanted to do some travelling and found that while I could get Visas with little trouble, she could not. Having the whole family (we have 2 kids) with the same citizenship also makes for peace of mind when we are coming and going to and from China, something we do fairly frequently.
Your husband will still be “Chinese”. Changing that piece of paper doesn’t change who he is in the least. It just smoothes over legal issues and satisfies governmental rules. Now, if your husband views “being chinese” as “being part of the current government” this may be a different matter but I know for my wife she is Chinese regardless of who handles the politics or who issues the documents.
Thanks for the comment, Stuart!
I would agree that there might be some logical reasons to give it up if we were to reside permanently in the US. But we plan to move permanently back to China. In that case, having Chinese citizenship is a benefit. You don’t have to pay as much of a down payment on a home as a foreigner, it’s easier to start a business (something my husband is considering) and, of course, he won’t need a visa to reside there.
Additionally, the pride factor is a big issue for a lot of Chinese men. My husband is proud to be Chinese and simply does not want to relinquish his citizenship. It really has nothing to do with being part of the government — it’s just that, for him, giving up Chinese citizenship is like turning his back on his motherland. I have heard other foreign women with Chinese husbands have the same experience.
Hello Jocelyn,
Your blog is very interesting. I am so impressed by your experience in China. Just like me now, I am in Germany and experiencing the culture difference, which give me a deep insight of Europe. The culture is really different from China. But I like it. Today i am in Germany for two years but haven’t been back to China for two years. I miss home, but home is everywhere for me. Since I walked out of the gate of my home, I say, my life gonna be different from others, for example, I wanna have a foreign wife in the future, I am looking for a true love here but right now I still keep on researching. I wanna live in a multicultural region with different people from different countries. To me, the difference often bring me the fun and lot of interesting stuff to me. I will come often to your blog and become the fanns here.
Enjoy your life in China.
Xiaoheng
Hi Harris,
Thanks so much for the comment, and I’m so glad you enjoy my writing.
Sounds like going abroad has given you a new opportunity for self-discovery — that’s outstanding. Well, from my experiences and connecting with those of my readers, I can tell you that there are foreign women out there who would love to date you. Good luck with your own journey, and you’re welcome to visit here anytime!
Haha, I personally know the first guy å½å‡¯å¹³ (Peng Kaiping) on your website “Listing citizenship on a university departmental website” http://rwxy.tsinghua.edu.cn:8001/psy/newsindex.jsp?classid=12 he taught us behavioural studies when I was at Tsinghua (it was his sabbatical year from Berkley) Great guy.
Thanks for the comment, John. What a small world, to meet someone who actually took a class with Peng Kaiping. I’m glad to hear you enjoyed the class.
So many people treat US citizenship/green card as a utilitarian tool, which I totally understand. For travel convenience, for scholarship reasons and, let’s face it, for the grossly generous welfare checks. But to be a US citizen or even a PR, one should appreciate the country’s history, heritage, etc.
I have seen so many putative “Americans” who are socially, linguistically, politically and culturally detached from the United States. Did you know that 30% of HK people hold US citizenship or green cards? I doubt most of them actually know anything about US history other than that Washington and Lincoln were famous presidents.
Of course, a part of this problem lies with the US government whose loony liberals pass out citizenship and green cards like supermarket food samples
(I should note here that I am a naturalized US citizen.)
Hello everyone
I am in a situation that is very….strange…or stressful…to say the least. I’m sure when you hear this you will be a little perplexed.
I am in a relationship with a great and beautiful Chinese girl. We’ve been with each other for over a year and for the most part it’s been a long distance relationship. I met her when I was in China and I would have stayed there if my Chinese company would have agreed to sponsor my working visa.
I was scammed and I worked at the company for almost no pay before I figured out they were just using me.
Therefore, with little time left I could not find another job so I had to leave China.
Now, you guys might say that maybe I can go the route of the English teacher since I’m so fluent in English. Well, tough, I’m Chinese, just with an American passport. And I seriously doubt that the schools would want a Chinese-looking American teacher. The heck with that idea, and plus, I don’t like that job anyways.
Now, I never wanted to apply for US Citizenship…my parents “applied” for me when I was around 13….I never agreed to it. I told them not to do it…but….I mean I never felt that I was an American…well maybe for a couple of minutes here and there, but for the most part. I feel that I’m Chinese.
My girlfriend, does not even care about my “American” passport, or understand any of that stuff. She is “pleading” for me to restore my Chinese citizenship so that we can be together. And I’m thinking of going that route as well.
I’ve applied for many other jobs in China for “foreigners”, even though I speak fluent Chinese, and can read and write and all that stuff. A lot of companies have “ignored” me, I don’t know the reason of course (I can’t even work in the country that I was born?? Unbelievable…). I still want to get a working visa in China because I know that I will get paid more than the average person. But let’s say that I restore my Chinese citizenship, is it possible for me to get a good paying job right off the bat? Because I’m not only fluent in English, I’m fluent in Japanese as well. So…..I know that the Chinese might treat foreigners better but I don’t really care about that stuff, I just want to be with my girlfriend because we genuinely love each other.
And me changing/restoring my Chinese citizenship might piss off my parents but I don’t really care what they think.
I just want to be independent, have my own job, be close to my girlfriend, be with her for a couple of more years and then marry her and live a simple Life. If I keep my US citizenship, maybe traveling will be a lot easier for us….not sure though.
Love to have your input.
Hi Lem, thanks for the comment.
This is a question I know almost nothing about — you’d probably best talk to an immigration lawyer in China who might have a better understanding. From what I do know about Chinese citizenship, however, it can be difficult to obtain.
I will say this. I worked for two Chinese companies. While I wasn’t “scammed” per se, the first tried to manipulate me into doing work I was not recruited to do (long story). The second hired me with a vague idea of what they wanted me to do, and then ended up tossing me away with a vague “I’m not sure if we’re going to hire you” long after my contract expired (another long story I cannot get into). So crazy things can happen with Chinese company jobs to all kinds of foreigners.
I have to wonder, though, if citizenship really would matter. You clearly have talents that would be valuable to many companies — why not apply to some multinational organizations? I worked for a multinational, and everything — from the work itself to management and supervision — was far more standardized. My company did not discriminate based on appearance, as they hired many Chinese Americans and other non-Chinese Asians.
Additionally, don’t cross teaching work off your list entirely. While indeed you will face great obstacles, you can find a job with persistence (and a thick skin). See this article on Middle Kingdom Life on teaching English for non-white speakers.
Hello Joceyln
Thank you so much for your comment. Me personally I don’t think I even want to be an English teacher, I’m not interested in the teaching job regardless of how well they pay. I don’t have a teaching license or anything. And I’d rather have a job where I’m not really “required” to speak English….since I’m fluent in Chinese myself. Or have a job where I can speak Japanese.
Just ANY respectable job like any other Chinese guy (that pays well of course).
I am fluent in Chinese I know I can succeed in doing other jobs in China. Can you mention some of the multinational companies? I did try to apply but the fact that I just graduated from college roughly 2 years ago, I don’t have that much experience. That is why I’m leaning on changing my citizenship and just be done with it.
And from what I know, Chinese citizenship is hard to obtain if you’re a complete foreigner. If you used to be a Chinese citizen, and had to change your citizenship without “consent”….then I hear it shouldn’t be much of a hassel.
Thanks again.
Hi Lem,
There are so many multinational companies, and I’m only familiar with a tiny percentage of them. It really depends on the type of work you’re looking for (I worked as a corporate writer, for example, which may be different from you). Yes, many are not English-only (mine sure wasn’t). Your best bet is to network with people in the business world in China, as there are so many jobs that never get advertised. The American Chamber of Commerce, for example, offers networking events — and you would be very likely to meet up with people working for a variety of multinationals.
You said you don’t have much experience. But there are many entry level positions that don’t require more than 2 years of experience (I landed my multinational job, as a writer, with less than a year and a half of experience). Keep in mind that entry-level jobs can be a gateway to better opportunities. After all, I worked w/ my multinational for about a year and they were already offering me a promotion to become a supervisor.
Really?
Why is it I never knew about this. The thing is that I’m not in China anymore, and the only way is to apply online.
I’ve tried Shanghaiexpat and Echincities and applied for many jobs, with only a few returning my applications. And one even saying they can’t get me a visa and I can work there “illegally” if I want….
I will try even harder.
Thanks a lot.
There is a way for your husband to change his passport but be allowed to come back to China (the mainland) without a visa.
If he worked in Hong Kong, he would eventually be eligible for a Hong Kong ID card (which is available to all nation’s passport holders) and then a home return permit (通行证), which allows visa free travel to the mainland.
I can understand however that for your husband that the passport is an important part of his identity
Hi, I felt enlightened after reading all the glosses contributed by you and all the bloggers, and it’d be rude not to leave a few words.
The entry has indeed opened up a huge topic, and as a Chinese person living in NZ, I find myself in a similar situation as you guys in the States but entangled in different red tapes.
I think a Chinese passport does mean something more than a piece of paper, it is a connection to current China. Your husband’s reluctance to switch identity is quite understandable when you think about some practical things for him in the future. Relatives back in mainland; sick elderly parents need to take care of and every possible individual circumstances. If facing paper work and visa application is a hassle now, try renewing a Chinese visa for the above purposes I listed. It is easy to say, but hard to truly understand and put yourself in others’ shoes, you have to be in their SHOES!
I don’t think there’s much anyone can do presently, and don’t get upset to think that you cannot get thing sorted fine. There’s so much can happen in a year, two years, think about what happened in the past decade as progress if it makes us feel better!
Another thing is that even if a Chinese person holds an overseas passport, in this case American, does it solve every problem you’ve got? He’d still have the same circle, and not be recognised as a “true” fellow citizen by those pre-conditioned consciously or unconsciously. And at the same time, he estranges his former ties with many behind. So I say, if you are not ready, don’t do it, and it works differently for each individuals, as we hear and see in reality, so no universal law here to apply. The most important thing is, if the marriage is genuine and stable, respect their decision and don’t impose what you think it’s better for them (suggestions are different of course). The true of the matter is, if you are not troubled by this matter, you’d be busy with something else, like other couples on Dr Phil for instance, maybe you are a lucky one. We should appreciate the situation we are in because we can deal with it although it’s sticky.
All the best, don’t take it too seriously cos nobdy can change it now. Life is a boat, and we all gotta sail on.
My wife applied for US citizenship as soon as she was eligible. One reason she did was because it is much easier to travel on a US passport than a Chinese one because all the countries she would like to visit do not require a visa for US citizens staying less than 90 days. The other reason she gives me is that she just likes America more than she does China. She loves her family dearly, but most days she would rather live in the US with all its problems because they are all out in the open for all to see instead of living in China where she says they either ignore or are indifferent to all their problems hiding them under a thin veneer of flowery language.
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I’m british born but american raised- since my parents were from hong kong i also have perm. residency here (basically as good as a passport for issues of residence)- i have passports to both uk/US…and i’m a very westernized chinese guy. I’ve been thinking about giving up my US passport simply due to worldwide taxation- i figure my UK passport is about as good as my US one (in terms of visa free travel), but obviously majority of my family/life is in the US, so that holds me back. In addition, my girlfriend who is dutch would need my citizenship to help with an visa/green card application should we proceed to the marriage level. tough choice for sure!
i saw the arguement between Roadblock and Michael. and to answer your question, Michael, “I am constantly flabbergasted by how many people I meet in this country that is so disrespectful to their own country. I still, after living here for several years, can´t understand why. ” here’s what Stravinsky said when he visit Soviet Union after 50 years of exile: “it’s my country. I can hate it. But I don’t allow other people criticise it.”
If you are both having every intention to return to live in your husband’s home country he should DEFINITELY keep his citizenship and passport of his country. It’s really not such a big issue, these things are part and parcel of such marriages. And if your situation changes in China in years to come, you’ll always be able to find a way around things. For him, a Chinese National living in China with an Ametican passport really isn’t such a great thing. You may not agree but honestly, that is the case.
lunayx, very true. I live in London for nearly 10 years. Although I enjoy very much the life style here, 3 out of 10 people I met born in this country told me that they hate London. They can’t wait to get out of this shxxxt hole if they can. 5 of them give no comment and only 2 of them told me that they love this place and would like to stay. I guess people are just creating problems for themselves. Regardless which nationality or which country, people can always find things to complain about.
One thing I want to make clear for Jocelyn – I am 100% positive that you are not subject to the one child policy, ANYWHERE in china. Even Chinese themselves get around the rules fairly frequently (I wonder how the country went from 1.2 billion when I left to now the 1.6billion – that’s a hefty 33% increase in 15 years. And remember, this is counting only the registered citizens! Clearly people go around this rule all the time). While on the planes, I see many Chinese couples coming to America to have their children born American citizens. Those “additional” children are not only legal in Chinese government’s eyes, they will also receive American benefits such as our free education system and automatically qualify for the American colleges which many Chinese families envy.
As for your husband, I was in the same situation, well sort of. I was a green card holder for almost 10 years (since I was a teenager) before “converting” into U.S. citizenship. As a Chinese national living in the states, having a US residency is better than US citizenship, since you are waived from applying a Chinese visa (a hefty $140 fee) every other year. As a U.S. green card holder, I never had any problem applying tourist visas with my Chinese passport. As long as they know that I’m a U.S. resident, my visa is always approved like I am a U.S. citizen that needs to apply a visa.
Well the problem started when I was applying for another visa while OUTSIDE the U.S and China. Then I have to go through a degracing queue of people for many hours like a criminal, watching countless sad faces leaving the embassy. When it was my turn, the embassy lady demanded the papers in harsh tones like I was guilty. Then moment when she realized that I was a U.S. resident, her tone changed and a much more lenient visa was issued….. “ah, if only I applied the citizenship, how those efforts could have been saved” I thought.
Ever since then, I knew I’d have to apply the citizenship someday. It only took me a couple years of laziness to pull my ass together and apply. Once the process started, it was very easy and quick. I was a citizen in a few weeks…
Now, with my U.S. passport, I traveled around the world. I really enjoyed my passport. But there are cons, I don’t have a good health insurance when I don’t have a job (yes, U.S. medicare or whatever is a joke). I had to rely on my parents’ medical money to see decent doctors in China when I go back (my parents kept their greencards so they have Chinese national health care $$). But if anything major happens, I don’t think my parents are allowed to shed their health money for a major surgery or anything like that.
And now I do have to apply a Chinese visa every other year – which could be a pain.
I can’t really work in China now. I still have a hukou and a valid Chinese national identity card (last checked October 2011), but if I work, then the Chinese authorities will find out and they will be removed…. Like Roadblock said, there are good benefits with a Hukou like BeiJing and ShangHai that foreigners in China will ever dreamed of….
and U.S. international tax really sucks. If I ever end up living overseas permanently, I may have to consider rejecting my U.S. citizenship – just like how I rejected my Chinese one.
Hi Jocelyn,
I wonder if this issue has been settled. I was a Chinese national myself. I married a Michigan girl nearly ten years ago and gave it up. (She recently started a blog about our cross-culture marriage.) Our situation is a bit different, as we live here in Ohio and have no plan of moving back to China. My parents immigrated years ago, although my father still refuses to give up his Chinese passport. One of our discussion regarding citizenship involved not only the practical issues, but also how much I value my wife’s family/life here. I think since we were married here and had children, it was my responsibility to show my commitment to my wife regardless what future would bring. That being said, I can perfectly understand your husband’s emotion, especially since his parents are still there. Your husband and I are products of the same generation (grew up in China in the 80s and 90s? I was born in 1977). There was a lot of nationalistic education in school. It is hard to pull oneself out of the patriotic mindset. I am not saying I don’t love China. I do. But my love is not tied to a piece of paper. My love is for my family there, the place I grew up and my friends. A passport simply declares one’s legal status issued by a government. It does not declare one’s love for anything. There are plenty of Itailan/Irish/Chinese/Japanese Americans I know who fully embrace their culture without having to hold on to their citizenship.
From a practical perspective, I agree that travel will become easier, especially for people with means. However, there are other things to consider as regarding to permanent residency. What’s your thought about living in China and raising family there? Issues with pollution? I don’t know if you have had much experience with the Chinese healthcare system. I am a pharmacist. Through my relatives and my own experiences, I have dealt with the Chinese healthcare system a few times. One thing I can tell you is that if you ever have anything major healthwise, China is not the place to be. It is not the fact they don’t have the capability or technology to treat some of the conditions. It is simply the fact that responsible and compassionate doctor/healthcare providers are extremely difficult to find. Most doctors treat their patients as inferior beings, showing little caring. The system is very complicated, and very few people care you as a person. What about the society as a whole? How much do you know about the business atmosphere and legal condition? We are not talking about politics or democracy here. My mom is there helping my uncle to run a multi-million dollar electronics company now. They just built a new factory near Shanghai. From what she tells me, the entire society is corrupt to the core. No business can be done without bribing. We are not talking about simple “guanxi.” The issues they have to deal with included anywhere from embezzlement to intimidation from organized crime associated with local governments. There is absolutely no rule of the law. I am very worried about the future of China. I don’t believe an economy built on these conditions can thrive long term.
When it comes to family and parent, that’s an entirely different matter. Most Chinese feel responsibility for their parents’ retirement. We are struggling with this now, since my parents are retiring in a year or so. They will have enough to live on, but I still feel the need to take care of them. I am sure your husband will feel the same way. I don’t know what a perfect solution looks like. Perhaps, it is going to be a working progress. Having family on both sides of the world is not convenient by any means. I’d be very interested to follow your progress. I’d love to hear from your husband’s perspective as well.