Pub'd in The Huffington Post: "Why Won't Western Women Date Chinese Men?" | Speaking of China

85 Responses

  1. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian September 19, 2014 at 4:44 pm | | Reply

    Congrats!

  2. Yang Li
    Yang Li September 19, 2014 at 5:59 pm | | Reply

    Thanks for the post Jocelyn. As an Asian American man who was born in China but immigrated to the US. This sort of prejudicial treatment of Asian men happens quite frequently in the US as well. I think there are several factors that have created this “impression” that Chinese, i.e. east asian men aren’t attractive. One is fueled by western media caricatures. Two, these men’s own limitations.

    Perhaps its easier to start the conversation by breaking down the traditional ideal of masculinity. Western definitions usually have strong machesmo elements such as being muscular, un-emotional especially with fellow men, womanizing, i.e. being a player, swooning women off of their feat and being the assertive, aggressor in a romantic interaction . Chinese/East Asian men were never raised to BE these things. Chinese culture for one does not positively reinforce any of these traits strongly in both the media or youth culture. In fact, the values and images that are reinforced are exactly values which in the western value’s context would deem as “weak” or “beta” if you will. These images include being a virtuous family man, supportive and certainly not muscular in a physical sense. Therefore, you don’t see a rapid clamor to get in the gym from Chinese kids. What you see is a fret about getting a good education and a good job, so they can what? support a family obviously.

    So in the final analysis, I think there is a very strong cultural disconnect that American/Western media has chosen to make caricatures of. Its the classic, we make fun of what we don’t understand approach that Hollywood adopts for many cultural traditions that its not familiar with or possibly goes against what purports as the “right” cultural traditions. This is true for the Indian head shaking as well.

    However, I would also say that the idea of masculinity in China as well in other parts of the world are changing, i.e. feminism in the US. No gender role ever fully stays static. Part of the burden for Chinese men is to adapt to this shifting trend. Caricatures of Asian men are there, and its real. Its poisoning the minds of millions of non-asian women, hell even some asian women. The question is what are Asian men, particularly Chinese and east asian men going to do about it? This media situation won’t change just through us discussing it. No, thats why I think a large part of this problem can only be remedied by a push back from Asian men themselves and also through stories shared in blogs such as yours.

  3. R Zhao
    R Zhao September 19, 2014 at 8:39 pm | | Reply

    Interesting article. I would like to comment that I have, perhaps, stumbled on one place on the planet where AMWF may well outnumber their WMAF counterparts–Indonesia. The country, in some areas I visited, was full of locals guys dating and/or sleeping with foreign (primarily white) female tourists. When I traveled on my own, I was constantly getting attention from men. They were friendly and confident, often laid back, and occassionally too aggressive. It was very diffent from my experiences in China.

  4. Constance - Foreign Sanctuary
    Constance - Foreign Sanctuary September 19, 2014 at 9:18 pm | | Reply

    Congratulations, Jocelyn! I can’t wait to read it! You have a way with words and I am sure that it is a very well-written article and a good read!!

  5. hopelessmisanthrope
    hopelessmisanthrope September 19, 2014 at 10:47 pm | | Reply

    Thanks for calling attention to the problem of expat racism in China.

    There’s an old hebrew saying that goes something like, “Those who cast aspersions on another group do so because they are projecting their own weaknesses on others.”

    It’s normal for the perpetrators of some of the worst crimes in human history to project their own crimes or those of their ancestors on others. Whites aren’t comfortable talking about slavery, the holocaust, the tens of millions of Native Americans exterminated in the Americas or the genocidal wars of aggression they commit every year on brown people all over the world or the mistreatment of Asian men in the US and in Asia by expats. It’s easier and more self satisfying to talk about other people’s alleged crimes (such as Chines people’s alleged mistreatment of blacks in China). It’s fashionable to call out racism when it’s directed at others. That makes oneself feel good and it’s what white people like.

  6. Marta
    Marta September 20, 2014 at 12:24 am | | Reply

    Wow, congratulations! I just read the article. I have never watched Sixteen Candles and now I’m curious about that character you mentioned… it won’t make me dislike Chinese men, too late for that haha!

  7. Bruce
    Bruce September 20, 2014 at 12:59 am | | Reply

    I’m glad you guys understand where we as Chinese men have failed. How are we going to correct it? I’ve changed a lot over the yrs from my personality to my physique. Now it’s your turn to change. Only you can change your body and yourself.

  8. chinaelevatorstories
    chinaelevatorstories September 20, 2014 at 1:52 am | | Reply

    Well written article. It’s a pity that many people living abroad still think in these stereotypes.

  9. Mary
    Mary September 20, 2014 at 2:09 am | | Reply

    Wonderful article in the Huffington Post Jocelyn! Congratulations!

    I haven’t seen Sixteen Candles either, but that image you described about the Asian male character… oh my goodness! So terrible!

    I’d like to think that the media and entertainment industry has gotten a little more sense since the 90’s. I still think we have a long way to go, but it has improved somewhat (I’ve been seeing billboards in L.A. for that ‘Selfie’ show with John Cho as the leading male–maybe that one will lay off the stereotypes, for once!)

    Good work as always 🙂

  10. Fred
    Fred September 20, 2014 at 4:43 am | | Reply

    @ J.E.

    What a great post. With so much negativity out there against Chinese men, one begins to wonder whether some of the reasons behind the negativity have some merit. I personally do not believe in those negative stereotypes against Chinese men especially being a Chinese man myself. But there has to be a reason as to why the Western world views Chinese men in such a negative light. But in order to dispell those negativity, Chinese people have to not believe in those stereotypes in the first place.

    P.S.: I noticed that you cited my Hong Kong field report to support your article.

  11. IC
    IC September 20, 2014 at 4:57 am | | Reply

    Nice article with deep thought. However, it is not just prejudice and media. There is also biological reason behind the phenomena if you have deep knowlege of human and animal evolution.

    It is also matter of assortative mating. There are plenty overlap IQ between asian females and white males. But there is very small common overlap between Asian male and White females. Also there is quite overlaped area between black male and white female.

    People only can form long term relationship when they can reach similar conclusion about life and every thing. You, Jocelyn, and many females here are far more intelligent than most white females outthere. You will never be able to educate idiots to understand you. This sad trend will be hard to change.

    Impulsive behavior is considered attractive among less intelligent. Strong muscle is also associated with weak intellects. Strong sexual characters (sexual dimorphisim) are associated with less monogamous behavior. These are biological facts. You can not change these facts. At end, every one to their own. Dysgenic outcome is obviously for most white females except a few rare breeds here.

  12. D-Maybe
    D-Maybe September 20, 2014 at 7:23 am | | Reply

    Great article and congratulations, Jocelyn. I agree with you that racism lies at the heart of the reason why white women won’t date Asian men (and racism is also largely the reason why white men are attracted to Asian women). However, I also want to point out that for a significant number of white women it has to do with their own insecurities. Generally speaking, white women are bigger, heavier, and hairier than not only Asian women but often also Asian men, and this makes them feel less feminine and thus less desirable when they’re in the company of Asian men.

    @R Zhao… I don’t think the situation in Indonesia you’re referring to is a good example of AMWF success. The Indonesian guys that approach white women, especially in touristy locales, are basically gigolos that target white women for financial/economic gain – the men are basically after sugar mamas. You see the same sort of thing happening in the Caribbean region where old or otherwise unattractive white women have a well-established presence as sex tourists for the black men.

    1. R Zhao
      R Zhao September 21, 2014 at 1:31 pm | | Reply

      Perhaps you are right, but I didnt mean to suggest it’s a “success.” I didn’t write that it was and it’s funny how almost every time you disagree with a post you put words where none were written.

      In any case, let’s ponder. . . how many Asian women with foreign men are successful? How many of their relationships are started due to an exchange between sex (pretty young Asian women) and money (old foreign guys). It happens a lot. Whatever the intentions, my point is that now all Asian men are overlooked by foreign women and there actually may be places in the world where the AMWF is somewhat prevalent, despite what is said in the article.

      1. D-Maybe
        D-Maybe September 21, 2014 at 2:52 pm | | Reply

        Okay, I apologise if I have misunderstood your point. But what are the other instances of me putting words that were not written? (For the record, upon second reading, my interpretation of what you wrote was not unreasonable at all given the context of the discussion.)

  13. Anonymous
    Anonymous September 20, 2014 at 8:57 am | | Reply

    IC: where do you draw these “facts” from? did your husband teach you these? Or was it the step dad who abused you when you were young?
    I am not sure if white females are particularly prone to stupidity, or muscularity is associated with low intellect, but I think your post(s) do/does a good job to being an example of stupidity.

    Keep contributing and maybe one day, you will get to become the alpha male like Bruce (or at least, self-admittedly so)

  14. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian September 20, 2014 at 9:24 am | | Reply

    I note that some have said that Chinese men (even from Chinese men themselves) should help improve their image to conform to the western ideal of a desirable man. But why should they? Unless of course, their sole aim is to attract western women for now or to show the western guys that they are no pushovers. Is the western ideal the superior one? Really? Muscle bound and largely lacking in other attributes we take as the standard? What have we come to? Unless the Chinese are really sickly, I don’t see any reason why being muscular and so-called macho and soon flabby in middle age has any advantage over ‘nerdy’ and other attributes.

    1. D-Maybe
      D-Maybe September 20, 2014 at 9:58 am | | Reply

      You make a good point, OM. One of the reasons why Asian men have such a bad reputation is because not enough attention has been focused on the negative traits of white men. Why are white men not seen as the hairy, fat, and pasty slobs that they are? This is what happens when you don’t have control of the mainstream media.

  15. IC
    IC September 20, 2014 at 9:28 am | | Reply

    @Anonymous

    Your IQ is only good for throwing out personal insult. I will reduce my own here now to fit your need to be insulted back.

    Here is your personal story: Your mom was raped by monkey to produce the your brain so tiny which even less than that of rat. How did your mom did that? It all started from your grandmother who worked in Nevada desert to legally serve those lonely cowboys need. During the service, accidentally produced your mom. The cowboys are not very bright type. So your mom even do not possess average intelligence so that she ended up a victim of monkey. As for your self, thing did not looks any better. What wait for you in future is pretty gross.

    So you can go to hell at end.

  16. Anonymous
    Anonymous September 20, 2014 at 9:39 pm | | Reply

    IC:
    Here’s some advice for you (apparently my previous was deleted):
    if you wanna criticize others for being dumb, or chirp someone’s stupidity, do it in coherent sentences with proper grammar, preferably free of spelling errors.
    And this is not saying anything of the content of your disses.

    You fobs are the reasons why most Americans still think Asian Americans can’t speak English

    1. D-Maybe
      D-Maybe September 21, 2014 at 9:49 am | | Reply

      You’ve touched on something that I think is worth discussing a bit more. It is indeed true that many Asian Americans (for that matter, Asians who were born and raised in an English-speaking country) do not have a grasp of common grammatical structures of English. I have seen evidence of this many times in the written English produced by Asian Americans on blogs, message boards, and various online forums. Of course, it goes without saying that white English-speakers have the same problem, but I see the problem occurring more consistently amongst Asians.

      Now, a number of theories have been put forward as to why Asians have trouble with English and the most popular that I’ve come across are:

      1. Interference by the language spoken by the parents at home, especially during the crucial developmental phase.

      2. Insufficient exposure to English.

      3. A lack of formal instruction on English grammar.

      I believe the most likely cause is either 2 or 3, because 1 has been proven to be invalid in studies of language acquisition.

  17. chengyong
    chengyong September 20, 2014 at 10:16 pm | | Reply

    well well well,

    I actually met couple british girl who are singles here, they would rather being alone, not approaching any men, for that means white, asian or black males at all
    they are perfectly bar type of girls, also I asked them how you handle your sexual needs, ya know what they said, we don;t need men, we can do it by our own.

    never than less, for expats in China, Enjoy your single life =)

  18. Marissa
    Marissa September 21, 2014 at 12:55 am | | Reply

    Congrats, Jocelyn on publishing for the Huffington Post! This article, as do many of your poignant posts do, resonated with me.

  19. Rdm
    Rdm September 21, 2014 at 5:31 am | | Reply

    Jocelyn,

    As outstanding as it always is, I don’t need to write thousands of comments again why AMWF is the way it is.

    Out of all the pictures in Huffpost, I think the one that struck me the most is the one where you’re sitting on the street of Zhengzhou wearing red shirt and red batik sarong. I have never seen that photo in your several posts here. If that’s the place where you fell in love with the first ever Chinese guy, I must say if I had happened to be there, I’m sure that I would be the one who fell in love with a western women forever!!!

    John holding your hands with your wedding gown under the sunlight is also terrific.

  20. Rdm
    Rdm September 21, 2014 at 5:33 am | | Reply

    @IC

    “Nice article with deep thought. However, it is not just prejudice and media. There is also biological reason behind the phenomena if you have deep knowlege of human and animal evolution.”

    –> Yet you wrote something completely irrelevant or ridiculously painful to follow your train of thought.

    ——————–

    “It is also matter of assortative mating. There are plenty overlap IQ between asian females and white males. But there is very small common overlap between Asian male and White females. Also there is quite overlaped area between black male and white female.”

    –> Explain IQ.

    Then extrapolate from your definition how it relates to interracial relationships.

    ——————–

    “People only can form long term relationship when they can reach similar conclusion about life and every thing. You, Jocelyn, and many females here are far more intelligent than most white females outthere. You will never be able to educate idiots to understand you. This sad trend will be hard to change.”

    –> Why did you think Jocelyn and several females here are far more intelligent than Most White women? It’s because they all married to Chinese men? Or do you have any personal anecdote to explain why you think Western women in AMWF automatically becomes “Far more intelligent” than the rest?

    Go back to your IQ argument and connect these two dots.

    ———————-

    “Impulsive behavior is considered attractive among less intelligent. Strong muscle is also associated with weak intellects. Strong sexual characters (sexual dimorphisim) are associated with less monogamous behavior. These are biological facts. You can not change these facts. At end, every one to their own. Dysgenic outcome is obviously for most white females except a few rare breeds here.”

    As dysgenic, dysmorphic, amorphous, shapeless, undecipherable, undiscernable as it may seem, I think you wanted to tell us something here?

  21. Rdm
    Rdm September 21, 2014 at 11:30 am | | Reply

    Who cares if Asian Americans or a person born in their native motherland cannot speak English?

    Speaking English fluently and properly helps one to make a progress in their career. But that doesn’t signifies that English is the language everybody on earth should cherish and worship.

    Since we’re on this one, albeit digressing from the topic on hand, I’d like to shed some of my thought on this “Language” problem.

    While @IC came out as a complete idiot commenting gibberish, grouping all together as FOBs and bashing on them like they are the reasons why Americans think Asian Americans cannot speak English, is totally off base and call for re-examination. One can clearly explain in plain English in a simple sentence without trying to appear like an idiot using big words.

    ONE of the factors contributing more disparity between AMWF and WMAF proportion is directly related to “English” being the international language and “English” being the de facto language for Westerners.

    While it may seem it has nothing to do with the language when it comes to dating interracially, the language itself in fact helps a lot subliminally.

    By anglicizing the Chinese names like Qing Chen, Chang Ching, Chu Ming, Qin Xi, it becomes butt of the jokes for those westerners who have grown up in their small towns.

    The fact of the matter here is English being the international language easily AFFORDS westerners to make fun of all other ethnic names like Qing Chen (Chinese name), and Hardik (Indian name). I emphasize here the description of “Afford” because English being the INTERNATIONAL language makes those jokes stick to anybody else who are westernized enough.

    Somebody from Turkey can easily know those jokes by watching comedy in English. An aspiring English learners somewhere from South Africa found that the stereotype of Chinese names often coming up with “Qing, Chen, Chong” is actually true after encountering Chinese tourists or immigrants. Why is that?

    We forgot English is the de facto international language, instead we became so immersed in the language that it is actually funny that Chinese name are all Qing, Chen, Chong while some Indian names are Hardik, and some sexual innuendo names.

    I’m not saying all English speakers or Westerners always trying to make fun of other people. I’m just pointing out the fact that English being the INTERNATIONAL language AFFORDS them to make fun of other ethnic names if they want to.

    Doesn’t “Qing Chen” in Chinese name have some meaningful root? It in fact may look like this “请陈” in Chinese.
    How about “Hardik” in Indian name? It in fact means “From the bottom of the heart”.

    Those ethnic names have very meaningful descriptions in their own language. We Asians as consumers of English language “Internationally” become the FODDER for jokes, and slurs without being willingly participating in the game of “stereotyping”.

    What about those White people name? David? Michael? Frank? They seem perfectly normal. Why is that? Why we don’t make fun of their names? Why can’t we stereotype their names? Well, it’s because they all are spelled in English. Try in Chinese, Malay, all other languages and see how it goes. Will our jokes stick to the general public like “the whole world”? Well, someone from Turkey is not reading in Chinese. So the possibility of Chinese jokes on English names range from zero to nada.

    I agree that one should try their best when it comes to speaking 2nd language instead of butchering completely. At the same time, one shouldn’t forget that the language is just the medium to communicate your idea to each other, NOT to be completely brainwashed like “If you can’t speak English, you’re not worth discussing”. There are many examples of people who can’t speak English fluently but made their lives to the best.

    This is just a sample of how things could go wrong if you think FOBs are the reasons why Americans think Asian Americans can’t speak English. Well, who cares. First who are Americans? White? Asians? Latino? Europeans? Who are Asian Americans?

    A coworker in our department from France speaks English terribly. The way she speaks is atrocious. Sometimes even “White Americans” can’t understand what she’s speaking.

    So FOBs are the reasons why Americans think Asian Americans can’t speak English properly?

    1. D-Maybe
      D-Maybe September 21, 2014 at 12:00 pm | | Reply

      I just wanna say that the US Constitution does not in fact specify English, or any other language, as the national language of the United States of America. So in that sense you’re right: who cares if people can’t speak English properly in America.

      Also, the name “David” does have a funny Chinese transliteration: 大尾

  22. Bruce
    Bruce September 21, 2014 at 11:44 am | | Reply

    Anonymous,

    It’s not about being Alpha or Beta ! It’s all about getting the job done. I work on my body because I like it. I love to exercise period. All I’m saying is make the women attracted to you and once they know you, you can become an Alpha or a Beta . The Bottom line is finding someone who is compatible with your personality. What we have here is most women won’t give Asian men a chance before getting to know us and that’s the issue right here.

    Finding a woman to love you always is not easy my friends. Chinese / Asian men just need to loosen up a bit that’s all and not take everything so serious and personal. We just don’t ask women out enough that’s all. You just need to learn these skills in order to mingle with western women. Women don’t like robots dude. They want to be told which restaurants to go to or where is the next travel destination. You know sometimes our jobs just kill us and we lose focus. Women like men with leadership and with a sense of direction in life.

  23. Bruce
    Bruce September 21, 2014 at 11:50 am | | Reply

    I don’t think that speaking perfect English is the main concern here . It’s how you present yourself.

  24. Sveta
    Sveta September 21, 2014 at 3:27 pm | | Reply

    I’m kind of late, but congrats on getting the article published on Huffington! Racism is hard to recognize and to realize. Most if not all people believe that racism is dead, when in fact its hidden. Also, unfortunately, the more something goes unsaid and unrecognized, the more it becomes the norm and the harder it becomes to break the cycle.

    I asked someone to read a story I’m writing that takes place in 1950s about a Korean male falling in love with a white female, and the person who read the story described it as an explosive mix of racism, which surprised me I admit. I guess I didn’t think I was focusing on racism when writing the story. I focused more on difficulties and prejudices, but racism never entered my mind when I wrote it.

  25. Logan Lo
    Logan Lo September 21, 2014 at 8:45 pm | | Reply

    OUTSTANDING! Going there to read it now.

  26. Shawn
    Shawn September 21, 2014 at 11:59 pm | | Reply

    I haven’t read the article yet, only the title. And somehow, I don’t like the title. It seems to suggest that Western women don’t date Chinese men, while we here all know that this is not true. So it kind of sounds like a loaded question in the direction of “Why did you beat your wife?”

  27. Bruce
    Bruce September 22, 2014 at 3:33 am | | Reply

    I’ve read the article and that’s why I keep on saying again and again that as Chinese men we have to redefine ourselves. What we have learned in Asia is totally opposite from the West.

  28. hopelessmisanthrope
    hopelessmisanthrope September 22, 2014 at 2:01 pm | | Reply

    Speaking of IQs, why is it OK to accept and to talk just about any racist stereotypes against Asian men in the mainstream media while it’s not OK to talk about differences with regard to other groups or between men and women.

    At least there are some evidence that E. Asians have higher IQs than other groups and that men have higher IQs than women you never hear people joke or talk about these differences but jokes and stereotypes against Asian men are ubiquitous in mainstream culture made by people of all political stripes when there isn’t a shred of scientific evidence to support it. When was the last time you heard a joke about blacks having lower IQs or being less intelligent or heard a rape joke from a male comedian or a holocaust joke from a non Jewish comedian on mainstream media?

    Some stereotypes are relegated to banishment and if you make a joke or even find it amusing you’re seen as a pariah while others stereotypes are blindly accepted as truth and employed for laughs without qualms. The PC police will hound you and blacklist you but when it’s against Asians everything is allowed and encouraged.

    Just a recent example, Joan Rivers has made some vicious jokes against Asians and Asian men before (not to mention the disgusting things she has said about Palestinians such as that they “deserve to be dead”) but no one in the mainstream media would allow it if an Asian made fun of her for being Jewish or a woman.

    1. D-Maybe
      D-Maybe September 22, 2014 at 3:17 pm | | Reply

      Well, racist jokes and racism in general against Asians are acceptable because they don’t carry the kind of historical baggage that racism against blacks and Jews does. Sure, Asians have also suffered at the hands of white people, but the suffering they have experienced is not comparable to the slavery and persecution experienced by blacks and Jews. Plus, traditionally Asians have tended to take the abuse directed at them silently, and so people have grown accustomed to thinking that it’s okay to abuse Asians.

      And people don’t talk about racial disparities in IQ scores because the practical implications of acknowledging them are far more dangerous and disturbing than the practical implications of acknowledging, say, racial disparities in penis size.

      I understand your frustration, and what we should work toward is that no race/ethnic group is subjected to discrimination and abuse.

  29. hopelessmisanthrope
    hopelessmisanthrope September 22, 2014 at 3:58 pm | | Reply

    “Well, racist jokes and racism in general against Asians are acceptable because they don’t carry the kind of historical baggage that racism against blacks and Jews does.”

    It’s still curious why it’s accepted. Is the logic that because Asians haven’t suffered as much as those groups by racism it’s Ok to balance things by discriminating on them now? That’s like beating one person repeatedly and then punching another person because that person hasn’t been beaten.

    “Plus, traditionally Asians have tended to take the abuse directed at them silently, and so people have grown accustomed to thinking that it’s okay to abuse Asians.”

    And one of the ways Asians can do this is by pointing out the bias in how Asian stereotypes are treated differently than stereotypes against other groups.

    “And people don’t talk about racial disparities in IQ scores because the practical implications of acknowledging them are far more dangerous and disturbing than the practical implications of acknowledging, say, racial disparities in penis size.”

    Really? And how’s that? Why should there be any “practical implications” of acknowledging (or even discussing and joking) about some scientific data? You can dispute the data but what can come of not talking about it or acknowledging its existence?

    I personally don’t think that data is a good indicator of inherent intelligence in groups but why would data on these groups be anymore harmful than the penis “data” especially when the later is based on anecdotes instead of science? Aren’t both dehumanizing and justifies discriminatory behavior?

    On what basis of evidence do you have that one has worse implications than the other. One seems to be worse in regard to things like employment in many fields where intelligence is a premium but the other is worse in regard to social well-fare of a group (demasculinizing and undermining the prospects of meaningful relationships). Both are of course very important to human well-being.

  30. Bruce
    Bruce September 22, 2014 at 8:16 pm | | Reply

    That’s we must need more Asian civil leaders in America similar to other black civil leaders. We don’t have that in our communities and we need more Asians who will join politics, or be in law enforcements/ gov’t dept. I hope this will help.

  31. David
    David September 23, 2014 at 1:45 am | | Reply

    Most white women wont date any non-white men…

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/black-people-and-asian-men-receive-fewer-okcupid-messages-white-people-does-mean-users-are-302872

    and they dont like the idea of white men dating black women or Asian women…the recent incident with a black actor where a white woman reported her to the police for making out with a white man is an example of this….

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11097050/Django-Unchained-actress-racist-police-Why-are-black-women-not-deemed-good-enough-for-white-men.html

  32. David
    David September 23, 2014 at 2:11 am | | Reply

    Most white women who wont date Asian men also will not date other non-white men…so that makes them racist. I have met a lot of white expat women in places such as Singapore who simply dont like the locals let alone local men…they always sit and complain about Singapore Chinese women dating white men…RACIST plain and simple! If it was just cultural differences they will date western born Asian men, which they dont.

  33. David
    David September 23, 2014 at 2:17 am | | Reply

    “The question is what are Asian men, particularly Chinese and east asian men going to do about it? ”

    How about power coming in numbers? So how about marrying Asians abroad and moving them and their families to the US and make white people a minority sooner rather than later. Unfortunately white men by marrying Asian women are contributing to the browning of America than Asian men who prefer to remain single and not marry outside their ethnicitiy…White men marry Filipinas from the Philippines and move them and their families to this country…are the Chinese men willing to marry Filipinas from the Philippines and do the same or does the Chinese men’s families say that you either marry a white or a Chinese? I think the latter is more of the case.

  34. David
    David September 23, 2014 at 2:35 am | | Reply

    “What about those White people name? David? ”

    David is from the Middle East, from the Bible, and just like names such as Mary, Joseph, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Thomas, Paul, Rachel, Ruth, Moses and Rebekkah have been expropriated from the Middle East by white people, that many of us fools who are not white believe that these are white people’s names…and if you are not careful, they will expropriate Chinese and other cultural icons too.

  35. David
    David September 23, 2014 at 2:44 am | | Reply

    Racism among white western women expats against locals is not surprising. An Alabama Frat guy who I met on my recent trip to Greece told me a very interesting story. He said that white female sorority sisters always blamed the frats for not admitting any minority women to their houses. He told me about two sorority white sisters who became violently ill after eating at a restaurant in Tokyo. However, in the final analysis it had nothing to do with the food. Someone had tweeted them that they had just admitted an Asian woman into their all-white sororities..a Japanese American woman to be precise. And here they are sitting in Japan eating at an expensive restaurant served by Japanese women in Kimonos and they throw up when they find out that a Japanese American woman has been admitted into their sorority….someone please tell me why whites people move to countries whose peoples they despise?

    1. Rdm
      Rdm September 23, 2014 at 3:48 am | | Reply

      Care to explain “Are they the same sorority girls?” you always seems to be obsessed with?

  36. Ri
    Ri September 23, 2014 at 2:14 pm | | Reply

    Congratulations on an excellent post! I tried to post on the Huffington website, but I’m not sure if it went throughーI could see it *sometimes* yet now it appearsto be gone. Don’t know if it’s something with their website, but either way: really interesting article, and I look forward to reading more (and hopefully being able to comment on Huffpost!)

  37. MM
    MM September 23, 2014 at 4:54 pm | | Reply

    Jocelyn good read, the only point of comment I make is that the article is based on ex pat women who do not like Asian men and do not want to date Asian men.

    However we know from your blog and other blogs that there are expat Western Women living in China who would like to date Chinese men but do not for the simple reason that many Chinese men don’t ask. In saying this there are men that have asked and are now married to WF or have been married to WF; these guys took “the leap” but they are a minority.

    Whether it’s cultural, family, self worth or don’t know how to (?) Chinese men simply don’t ask (it may also be that they aren’t attracted to WW?)

  38. David
    David September 23, 2014 at 10:06 pm | | Reply

    “based on ex pat women who do not like Asian men and do not want to date Asian men.”

    Then why move to their countries? You can always earn fat salaries in your country?

    “there are expat Western Women living in China who would like to date Chinese men but do not for the simple reason that many Chinese men don’t ask.In saying this there are men that have asked and are now married to WF or have been married to WF; these guys took “the leap” but they are a minority. ”

    Agreed. It is a vicious circle…men dont ask…and these men are probably 90% of the population rather than the crude ones who ask for the phone number.

    “Whether it’s cultural, family, self worth or don’t know how to (?) Chinese men simply don’t ask (it may also be that they aren’t attracted to WW?)”

    Cultural…afraid to ask for they will loose face big time with their friends and family if the white woman rejects him…I know a few men who “lost face”, not in China but in the more advanced Singapore and Japan….many people consider it a shame to be rejected by white western men….so it is a risk many Asian men are not willing to take. Secondly, the Asian men are also not fools…..they know where America is and where Jasper, Texas is…unlike some Americans who still dont know that Hawaii is the fiftieth state…in this internet era they also know about racism if they move to their white partner’s country, fear of what the female’s family or community might do to him…to many it is simply not a risk worth taking and putting up with racism.

  39. MM
    MM September 24, 2014 at 7:12 am | | Reply

    @David

    Yes there are expats who earn a “fat salary ” but don’t presume we are all earning “fat salaries”. Your comment is on the same level as Westerner who has never been to China saying ” Most Chinese are rich because hey’ve only ever seen “well off” Chinese travelling and buying luxury items, buying houses or studying at top universities. They’ve presumed “Chinese must be wealthy” but we ( those who live in China and have visited China) know this is not the case.

    Loosing face is a big issue in China but guess what when it comes to dating ( not just in China but in most countries) both men and women get rejected, that’s part of dating, that’s part of life (it’s ying and yang – one goes with the other). But you get “back on your bike” and try again and guess what there’ll be a time when you aren’t rejected.

    As for racism it goes both ways, unfortunately it doesn’t matter whether your Asian, Wester, European, From the Middle East etc there is racism, there’ll be “subtle” racism from family and friends or harsher racism from communities and strangers.

    It really does take will, confidence and determination to say “stuff it….I’m going to give it a shot and see what happens”

  40. Bruce
    Bruce September 24, 2014 at 11:23 am | | Reply

    Maybe most asian men get rejected because they don’t have game. Most asian guys don’t know how to be natural and outgoing. I’m freaking serious here. Please do not be like our fathers era where dating was different for them. Your presentation and looks to women ( western or asian american women) are totally different now. You have to present yourself openly now. You have to touch her on the shoulder or /and hold hands in order to build attraction for a kiss nowadays. I told you guys last yr that even a tall blondie wanted to talk to me and stared at me extremely strong eye contact. I was wearing my tank top shirt while texting to my buddy and I saw her walking toward me staring at me like crazy. I could sense that she wanted to know me and talked to me but too bad I’m a married guy :(. I even surprised myself that women checked me out too. Maybe I was working out 1 hr before and my muscles were poping out. Yes, David, we have to take rejections as everyday life now. We must not hold everything inside our heart. We must move on and better ourselves. Find out why you guys can’t land a woman of any race? Ask yourself some questions here man and stop blaming on rejections. Maybe your vibes suck or your personality needs some work or your body needs some muscles definitions or cuts. Stop using this ” losing face” crap dude. Let’s get rid of this 5000 yrs history of tradition. We must not be so narrow hearted like losing face or can’t let go of rejections. MOVE ON PLEASE!!!! Men and women are attracted to energy here. Eat more healthy food like fruits and vegetables and exercise. You have to look healthy and your body has to put out good energy. Stop acting like a dead fish. You won’t attract any women not even asian women. The secret is getting your feet thru the door and the rest is history. Once that woman gives you a chance, you’ll realize that she’s like almost any women out there. I’m telling all you guys here that you must look at yourselves in the mirror first and ask yourselves why you can’t get women. Work on your weaknesses like your personalities, your fashions or your weak ass body. Sometimes, fashions and nice body can pick up women already and you don’t need to talk much. Remember to smile often. If you can’t smile, slap your freaking face hard for me. Some women dress up to attract men but when they’re home, they look not attractive at all so don’t let the make ups fool you.

    1. Zen
      Zen September 24, 2014 at 7:28 pm | | Reply

      Any photos with head profile scribbled to hide the identity would be much appreciated. The body shot would be much more convincing to the readers here as well.

      Looking forward to your inspirational photos.

  41. Kevin
    Kevin September 24, 2014 at 9:18 pm | | Reply

    Hmmm…it appears to my amazement and suprise that David is back on here again. Always appears whenever the discussion of IR disparity between AM/WF and WM/AF is on. Also rants about racism ya-da-ya-da-ya-da…
    BUT…disappears in a flash without prior notice….

    @Fred…I think you might be correct about what you said earlier on. Keep me posted.

  42. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 1:09 am | | Reply

    Zen, ask Fred if I’m a phony or not.

  43. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 1:21 am | | Reply

    The media is still putting out stereotypical image of asian men. Movies don’t have many asian male actors and news anchors are not asian men. Mostly asian women get hired first 90%. Only bad things about us not many good things. We are suppressed by a very powerful culture. That’s why we all have to participate to vote. We just need more asian in the u.s govt dept and do more sports. It’s a long struggle but everyone has to join in. We are out numbered in those dept that s why we keep on having these problems. Asians can form our own movie companies if we want to. We can put more asian male actors in movies and China can do it.

  44. Fred
    Fred September 25, 2014 at 1:23 am | | Reply

    @ David and MM.

    Rejection is inevitable when one goes through the dating process whereby both you and the others endure vetting and screening. I have rejected potential women in the past. I hate to admit the following fact but I once rejected white women in my mind because I at one time only wanted to date a petite Chinese woman. Did it make me a “rascist”? When I was younger and unwise, I came across at times several white women who were giving me hints that they would not mind if I asked them out. But I failed to do so because I did not consider dating them as I wanted to marry only an Asian girl. Then when I matured and was willing to consider dating Western women, I was rejected at times. But one has to be strong and take the ego bruising and forget the inhibitions if one wants to be successful in finding the right partner in life. That is why I traveled all the way to Brazil to ask my then girlfriend’s mom’s permission to marry my girlfriend. I abandoned inhibitions and forget about losing face. In a way, I had to think like a Westerner who is not worried about losing face and had less inhibitions. So, now my mentality is more of a Western man than that of a Chinese man much to the dislike and dismay of many.

    So, don’t worry about rejection as even the Great Jocelyn Eikenburg was rejected when she admited that her first Chinese boyfriend dumped her ass not long after their relationship started and you did not see her giving u

  45. Fred
    Fred September 25, 2014 at 1:24 am | | Reply

    @ Zen.

    Bruce is real. He is the real deal.

  46. Fred
    Fred September 25, 2014 at 1:25 am | | Reply

    Oops. I wanted to write: “you did ot see her giving up.”

  47. David
    David September 25, 2014 at 2:11 am | | Reply

    “I hate to admit the following fact but I once rejected white women in my mind because I at one time only wanted to date a petite Chinese woman. Did it make me a “rascist”? ”

    No. Because Chinese is an ethnicity with thousands of years of culture…whereas white women is a term based on skin color and perhaps shapes of nose, eyes or lips….however, if you had said I only wanted to date Asian women, irrespective of cultural differences based on genetic phenotype, then you may be close to the racist whites who want to date based on skin color…ie., any white would do irrespective of cultural similarities…ie., a white American woman dating a light skinned Lebanese Moslem who grew up in Lebanon over a Chinese-American whose family has been in America for generations.

  48. David
    David September 25, 2014 at 2:13 am | | Reply

    “Also rants about racism ya-da-ya-da-ya-da…”

    Only rants about racism when Jocelyn talks about it.

  49. Zen
    Zen September 25, 2014 at 2:40 am | | Reply

    @Fred and Bruce,

    Good to know that you guys have some courtesy for patting each other shoulder.

    Should some real deal to prove it. Otherwise your whole description of “I’m that fit guy. I’m that muscular guy. That girl totally into me.” Kind of crap here.

    Anybody here can proclaim they are such a fit guy that any women will fall for them, staring at them, giving a leery look or whatever.

  50. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 4:50 am | | Reply

    Zen,

    We’re here to support Asian men during their difficult times with hooking up women. It’s not about Fred and me anymore because we’re married. You single Asian men out there should better yourselves here. We’re here to support you guys and solve this puzzle together. Hey, who says being fit and muscular is easy? I used to work out 6 times a week . Maybe for me is easier at 6’1″ tall. When I was younger and naïve too. I didn’t make a move on a nurse with big bosom damn it!! lol.

  51. Zen
    Zen September 25, 2014 at 4:54 am | | Reply

    Wait, what? You and Fred are married? Sorry, I didn’t realize that. That all explains.

    Would really appreciate if you could provide any link to your picture. Really wanted to boast myself up, looking up to your 6’1” height with 6 times a week body workout.

    1. Fred
      Fred September 25, 2014 at 6:34 am | | Reply

      @ Zen. Yes, we are married but not to each other. You think that we are gay!!!!!

  52. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 5:15 am | | Reply

    I don’t use supplements like you gym rats 🙂 lol. Zen, how tall are you and your height? Your email address?

  53. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 5:16 am | | Reply

    and your weight?

    1. Fred
      Fred September 25, 2014 at 6:36 am | | Reply

      @ Zen. If you want to see my photo then go to this article which I submitted here to Jocelyn:

      http://www.speakingofchina.com/guest-posts/guest-post-setting-chinese-nephew-american-women/

      I was the author of this article and my pic is displayed with my wife and 2 children.

      Fred

  54. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 6:32 am | | Reply

    Zen your funny. We are not gay dude. We are married to different women.

  55. Zen
    Zen September 25, 2014 at 7:14 am | | Reply

    Fred, thank you. Nice to see your family photo. It clears up everything I had imagined you with Bruce, 6’1” with muscular body towering over your body, giving you a pet hug, with a passionate lust, oh…. they all disappeared.

    Bruce, I still want to see your 6’1” with 6 days a week workout body. I really do. I need motivation to work out. I wanted to know why such a blonde woman stared at you after your workout while your muscle pops out like crazy. She must be drooling over your sweaty body.

  56. Fred
    Fred September 25, 2014 at 7:33 am | | Reply

    @ Zen.

    I have never met Bruce in person before, but I only have seen his digital photo.

    I am glad that he (Bruce) is getting all the leers and looks by those hottie white Western girls, while I get none.

    How about a pic of yourself?

  57. Zen
    Zen September 25, 2014 at 7:43 am | | Reply

    Fred,

    As I mentioned above, I’m not that handsome guy. I’m just a regular Joe. I didn’t claim I got tons of leery looks from women. I’m not that tall guy. Since Bruce mentioned frequently and openly, I wanted to have a look at the reality. It’s not meant to making fun of Bruce. It’s just a mental motivation for like me Asian guys. What needs to be done and what results I could expect for.

    Since Bruce seems like a perfect guy, I at least want to have a look.

  58. Zen
    Zen September 25, 2014 at 9:02 am | | Reply

    Thanks Bruce,

    You truly are amazing. I need to hit the gym regularly then. 🙂

  59. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 9:03 am | | Reply

    I can’t email you pictures from 15 yrs ago because it’s not current and wife will kill me. I like everything to be up to date . 15 yrs ago , I was doing 1000lbs leg press but now I can’t do that. Just old and too much injuries. sent !!!!! hehehehe. I emailed to you already, Zen. It’s all good fun and we can learn from each other here. You are still young and can accomplish a lot more than all of us here. good luck!

  60. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 9:12 am | | Reply

    Zen,

    First of all, you need to eat more proteins like 4-5 times a day. small meals. Of course, when I was in my 20’s I looked much better on muscle mass but now I’m in my early 40’s . Not many men in their 40’s can maintain like this. Most of them are either bald or fat . Don’t let others distract you from working out because this is a lifetime commitment until you die. You must keep yourself active with lots of hobbies going on in your life.

  61. Bruce
    Bruce September 25, 2014 at 9:19 am | | Reply

    Zen,

    I’m a real estate consultant and Fred is an attorney. People like us really exist on this blog. Zen, did I disappoint you ? I just have a lot of manly hobbies that I do year round to keep me young and fit. try to carry a deer 1500 ft ? You will sweat from head to toe. I can promise you!!!

  62. Anonymous
    Anonymous September 27, 2014 at 1:39 am | | Reply

    I’m really impressed with Bruce’s e-athleticism and e-studdiness. Every post, he never fails to mention how awesome and athletic and pretty much is always a god’s gift to women and the epitome of manliness for men.

    What’s next Bruce? You are gonna tell us you clean and jerk 160kg+ and squat 3xBW, while having a sub 11s 100m sprint and 40inch vertical?

    Color me “impressed”

  63. Fred
    Fred October 1, 2014 at 1:37 am | | Reply

    @ Anonymous.

    I think you miscontrued Bruce’s intention. He was not trying to demonstrate arrogance by asserting that he is the eptiome of manliness. He was trying to inspire us Asian men to better ourselves. One form of betterment is through exercise and to attain a level of physique to better able to attract women. Another form of betterment is mental positivism and that is why he was trying tell us to have a better attitude. He was leading us by showing his mental positivism and showing his physique. Bruce would be arrogant if he asserted that he was better than all of us.

    Fred

  64. Bruce
    Bruce October 1, 2014 at 7:25 am | | Reply

    Fred,

    That’s 1000% correct , my bro!!!!!!!!!!!! For example, when I saw someone built something, I was inspired to do it myself. I don’t care if the project takes 3 months, I’ll try to do it. Well same thing when you see a guy who is in great shape and look and talk with confidence. Aren’t you guys inspired to change yourselves? In order to be a “total package” you have to train every parts of your body including your personality, your brain, your body and your financial knowledge!! I told all of my friends to better themselves in all ways. You name it !!

  65. Honest
    Honest October 8, 2014 at 10:42 pm | | Reply

    I don’t think you can equate sexual preference with prejudice and racism. Some people have certain tastes. Diversity and variety are the spices of life.

  66. TLAG
    TLAG October 11, 2014 at 2:24 am | | Reply

    The media protrait of Asian or Chinese men is the problem. For years the media had protrait Asian men of been weird. Or eat anything he can find or catch or so on. Or always beat their female partners. This is making white females to think Asian men are creepy and will not engage in a normal relationship with them.

    Personally, I discovered that white females tend to be more aggressive in dating. And many think Chinese men are not assertive enough. This, I think is because in Chinese culture, there is a emphasis on patience more. And this sometimes is consider not been masculine enough!

    From my personal experience, I think the Caucasian culture is somewhat quick temper. Many I have met want things to happen fast and right a way. This is creating some misunderstanding too.

    And another thing I discovered is that many white people can not take NO as an answer from Asians. Many seems to think Asians have to always submitted to their desires. If they get turn down then they will often get angry and try to push their point. But in many Asian culture, this behavior is consider very rude. The emphasis on POLITE FIRST & ASSERTIVE LATER is deep root in Chinese culture. But this is seem as been soft in Caucasian culture. This is a big misunderstanding and often create troubles.

    Finally, I want to say that if all the white and black or other females out there want all Asian men to behave like in their own culture then why date Asian men!!!

    People date other people to complement each other and to help each other!!!
    If you want to date someone more like yourself then I guess may be you should not date out of your own circle.

    IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, NOT THE SIMILARITIES BUT THE DIFFERENCE IS WHAT MAKE THE DATING GAME MORE EXITING!!!

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