A Story of Sexism, Chinese Men and Who Should Wash the Dishes | Speaking of China

151 Responses

  1. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian September 3, 2012 at 3:50 am | | Reply

    Sorry, most Chinese children have been told that it is not for a man to do household chores, including washing dishes and ironing. Whether this is sexist, or division of labour, I don’t want to get into a debate. Personally, I can do my own ironing or washing dishes but pari pasu, I had rather leave them to the fairer sex. Sorry, if that is sexist, I stand condemned. Haha

    1. Tina
      Tina November 2, 2015 at 5:45 am | | Reply

      Don’t you think most women would rather leave them to someone else too?

  2. Miriam
    Miriam September 3, 2012 at 3:59 am | | Reply

    how fascinatingly sexist of John not to let you, the lady, do the “dirty work”:-)

  3. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 7:59 am | | Reply

    Sometimes. Obviously, not everyone fits every stereotype…and many stereotypes are false, or the grain of truth is so tiny that they shouldn’t be given credence.

    Other times, the stereotype exists for a reason, but it’s still important to couch such discussion with words and phrases like “often”, “sometimes”, and “you may find that”, or “this is not always true, however, generally…” or “there are, of course, exceptions”.

    And this particular stereotype – of sexism in China – I am sorry to say – has a larger foundation in truth than makes me comfortable. Plenty of Chinese (and Asian) men aren’t like this: they’re as feminist as I am. But so many are – and if I had to speak from observation, I’d say more *are* sexist than *aren’t*.

    It’s not just men. A lot of Chinese (and Asian) women have sexist views too: “he shouldn’t have to do housework, he’s a man”, or “a woman should never be as clever as her boyfriend/husband, or he’ll lose face”, or “a woman should never disagree with a man in public or he’ll lose face” or “he’s the man, let him pay, I’m a woman so I shouldn’t have to pay for things/hold a job/make money” “we all know she runs the company but her husband is the president – that’s good, because the face of a company should be a man”. Those are also sexist views, and plenty of women hold them.

    This is still a huge problem in China (and the rest of Asia, and the rest of the world, honestly) and “well one guy busted the stereotype so it’s fine” is just not good enough.

    For what it’s worth, this is a major dealbreaker for me. I have dumped guys over these kinds of views before, and “dishes are woman’s work” is a sentence that would earn that man an immediate breakup, no discussion, do not pass go, do not collect $200, it is OVER.

  4. ShaSha La Perf
    ShaSha La Perf September 3, 2012 at 8:46 am | | Reply

    Even in the states a lot of men still have the “dishes are womenz workz” attitude. I honestly can’t think of the last time I’ve seen a commercial for some sort of cleaning product that didn’t have a woman doing the work (or a man being completely clueless about it having a woman “save” him from it).

    When I moved in with my BF I established early on that the chores would be split between us. I cook, he washes the dishes. I vaccuum, he takes out the garbage and recycling. But I still end up doing more cleaning then him (but I’m also a slight neatfreak). I was a bit surprised earlier this week when I asked him about dusting and he told me he didn’t grow up in the household doing such a thing. Methinks his mom did it and he just never noticed it. One time he bitched about having to clean the apartment and I went on strike, not doing anything with or for him. The next day he cleaned the entire apartment, LOL. Since then we hasn’t complained about it.

  5. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 8:59 am | | Reply

    @Shasha – yes, sadly, that’s true. Many American men – many men around the world – have this issue. A lot of women, surprisingly, hold such views as well (my own mother accepts with resignation the idea that she’s got to do most of the housework. She doesn’t think it’s fair, but she does it anyway. I’m different – I won’t accept it).

    My husband is American, and is very, very egalitarian-minded and feminist. Before him, however, I dated a whole slew of guys – some American, some not – and many of them had quite sexist views. That’s a dealbreaker for me, and many a deal was broken.

  6. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 9:14 am | | Reply

    Actually both attitudes sounds sexists to me. One says he doesn’t do “women’s work” while the other says women should not do certain kinds of work (washing dishes).

    But China trades certain forms of sexism for a better attitude in other areas than the west. There are less rapes, sexual assaults (at least by the stats I’ve seen) and Chinese society is more tolerant of women working outside of the home in many occupations. Chinese society also has more women in politics and a higher percentage of women in corporate executive roles.

    1. kayli tan
      kayli tan December 24, 2015 at 10:06 pm | | Reply

      that is complete utter bull****. The government is extremely good at fabricating facts.

  7. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 9:32 am | | Reply

    I wouldn’t trust the rape statistics for China: I have read articles (years ago – I can see if they’re archived online though) stating that rape is really underreported in China as it tarnishes the woman’s reputation (there’s still a “she was asking for it” mentality among many) without a guarantee of conviction, that marital rape is considered by many to be acceptable, and even rape within relationships goes unreported when a woman feels guilty even when she was the one who was violated. Then again, I don’t entirely trust the rape statistics in the USA. Rape is consistently underreported around the world.

    The same with sexual assault: assault statistics may be lower, but workplace and general sexual harassment is considered acceptable by many, and it’s bad for the woman’s reputation to report it.

    As for women in politics in China – dude, it’s politics in China. ‘Nuff said. It’s not like those women were elected or anything.

    I will admit that China is more egalitarian when it comes to women in certain trades: engineering is one, medicine is another. I have not seen more acceptance of women working outside the home though (I found it was better than Japan, where a married woman with a child is practically pushed out of the workforce, but there were still a lot of old-school ideas about a woman’s main responsibility after having kids).

    I do agree that “washing dishes is never a woman’s job” is also a sexist attitude. I prefer “housework is a job, and both genders have to do it”.

  8. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 9:36 am | | Reply

    For a story – fictional, but it speaks some truths about women in China – about why rape statistics appear to be so low, read Ha Jin’s “Waiting”. The main female character is raped, and everyone in her work unit knows it…but she’s, ahem, **strongly encouraged** not to report it, because to do so would cause the man who raped her to lose face. He was a person of some stature, and so that could not be endured. If she reported it, it would end up worse for her by turning this man into an enemy.

    And you wonder why rape statistics seem so low in China?

    I know it sounds like I absolutely hate China – I don’t. I had a lot of adventures and experiences there. This is one very sore spot for me, though – the sexism in China was just unbearable, and it was one of the main reasons why I left and why I’ll never move back.

  9. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 9:59 am | | Reply

    ^^^The rape statistics in the US and every country is a low-balled figure too. That’s because of fear and stigma in those countries against rape victims. We don’t know how much they are under reported in those countries either. Maybe they are worse than China’s, maybe they are not. We don’t know. I don’t think anyone knows.

  10. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:02 am | | Reply

    “According to the American Medical Association (1995), sexual violence, and rape in particular, is considered the most under-reported violent crime.[4][5]

    The most common reasons given by victims for not reporting rapes are the belief that it is a personal or private matter, and that they fear reprisal from the assailant. A 2007 government report in England says “Estimates from research suggest that between 75 and 95 percent of rape crimes are never reported to the police.”[6]”

  11. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:03 am | | Reply
  12. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:06 am | | Reply

    “As for women in politics in China – dude, it’s politics in China. ‘Nuff said. It’s not like those women were elected or anything.”

    Of course they were elected. They were elected by other communist party members of course but that doesn’t mean they weren’t elected.

  13. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:07 am | | Reply

    True.

    But above, you defended China (which is fair, someone’s got to defend China on this front and it won’t be me) saying there are fewer rapes.

    You don’t know that. I don’t know that. I highly doubt it, though. But if you don’t know if that’s true, then it is not a strong defense.

  14. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:14 am | | Reply

    Wouldn’t that word be “appointed”, not “elected”?

    Either way, you can’t really compare politics in China to politics in democratic countries vis-a-vis female politicians, when they come into power in very different ways. If China were a democracy (which I hope will happen someday), would a comparable number of female politicians be truly elected? How would those numbers compare to the USA?

    If there is progress in women’s rights and views on women in society in China, then it is possible that they could be. Taiwan almost elected a female president – sadly, Tsai Ying-wen only lost by 800,000 votes (I supported her, although I cannot vote in Taiwan – not just because she’s a woman but because I agree with her party’s platforms). The usual sexist rhetoric you hear lobbed at American female politicians was not there: the one man who criticized her (from her own party, no less!) was quickly silenced – people didn’t care, didn’t want to hear it, and were disgusted that he’d bring it up. This is one of the many reasons why I love Taiwan and may settle down here permanently.

    China may go a similar route.

    If they don’t, however, I could see politics being rather like business in China – plenty of female workers, but the boss always has to be a man, and a man, in many people’s eyes, loses face by reporting to a woman. So you’ll see some female politicians but, like in companies, most of the people in power will be men.

    Or just as bad, like America, where just being a woman in the public eye invites criticism on one’s looks and attitude that men don’t receive.

  15. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:15 am | | Reply

    Actually I *wasn’t* “defending” China. I was merely pointing out that the statistics point to a different, more complex picture. You can’t simply rely on one side. You gotta look at the bigger picture because it may contain things that is contrary to a more simplistic side.

    Just like many people may point to different experiences with Chinese people than you have is not to say that their side is what all Chinese people are like. It’s just to give a fuller and more accurate picture.

  16. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:19 am | | Reply

    OK, although it sure seemed like a defense of attitudes in China in terms of sexism.

    Trust me, I’ve looked at the picture quite a bit, and for quite some time. I did used to live there after all, and now I live in Taiwan (which, while not China, provides some insight). Sure, it is complex, but I still stand by my overall impression – despite some exceptions, sexism is a huge problem in China, and one that cannot be ignored.

  17. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:20 am | | Reply

    Umm… No. Elected means elected.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China#Party_control

    “Elections in the People’s Republic of China are based on a hierarchical electoral system, whereby local People’s Congresses (人民代表大会) are directly elected, and all higher levels of People’s Congresses up to the National People’s Congress, the national legislature, are indirectly elected by the People’s Congress of the level immediately below.[1] The constitution does not specify how deputies to the people’s congresses of the autonomous regions, autonomous prefectures, and autonomous counties are chosen.

    While universal franchise is guaranteed in principle by the Constitution, in practice the Communist Party of China maintains full control of the entire electoral process. In practice, only members of the Communist Party of China, eight allied parties (the “democratic parties”), and sympathetic independent candidates are ever elected in any election beyond the local village level.”

    Again, not defending the Chinese (or American for that matter) political systems. Just giving a bigger and more accurate picture here. That’s all.

  18. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian September 3, 2012 at 10:22 am | | Reply

    Why are we always branding this as sexist and that as sexiest? Is life always a fight between the sexes, or of the sexes? If you are comfortable to do something, blardy well do it lah. If you are not, why then be made to feel that you must still do it because otherwise it is just sexist of you? Now, if I insist that my girlfriend walk on my left side because I feel comfortable (and I do, honestly) for all I know, I can be called sexist too. If you are looking to egalitarianise everything, you could very well be looking aghast at god who is perhaps the greatest sexist for creating us male and female. Maybe we should start to egalitarianise divinity. That may very well send god back to the drawing board. I would sure love that – serious! At least god would then have something to occupy himself, oops, sorry, herself also with; and won’t be so smug sitting up there toting up our sins and weighing us up for purgatory, heaven or hell the whole while while he/she is the original sin for creating us male and female. Sexism started with the first cause, and to the first cause we must go to settle the issue. Haha

  19. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:24 am | | Reply

    That is horribly undemocratic, and I’d still say that’s more “appointed” than “elected” as leaders are voted in by the party, not by the people.

    And again, I don’t think you can compare the role of women in that system to the role of women in a democratic one.

    But if China wants to work on it’s sexism problem, they’d be better off looking to Taiwan – not just for the progress the country has made but also how that can be done in a culture with a common root while preserving cultural heritage – than to the USA or the West. While Taiwan still has issues with sexism (every country does!) it’s one of the most progressive and female-friendly, egalitarian societies in Asia…and it shares a cultural history with China, and has managed to preserve that culture remarkably well. It can be done.

  20. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:28 am | | Reply

    Well, I’m an atheist so I’m not going to address the whole “god” thing.

    I’m calling this sexist and that sexist because IT IS SEXIST. There are plenty of things I don’t say are sexist, because they’re not. But this post is about sexism, and there is a lot of sexism in the world. I won’t just ignore it because a few people don’t like to hear that.

    If you don’t like it, DON’T BE SEXIST (not “you” specifically, I don’t even know you, but the general, “all of you” you).

    I live a pretty good life and have an egalitarian marriage, but not every woman does, and as a woman, yes, that is my concern. I do not believe in a world where I get mine and the rest of you can go to heck – I care about other women, and in a world with many women’s rights issues, I will speak out.

  21. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:29 am | | Reply

    Even if it doesn’t meet your standards of what a “democracy” should be it still wouldn’t mean that it isn’t an election.

    Even so, I happen to think it is democratic. I happen to think that many things in the PRC are very democratic but I probably have far different understanding of what democracy is than you.

  22. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:29 am | | Reply

    And, as an atheist, I don’t believe in original sin. I don’t believe you can judge men or women based on that, because it didn’t happen.

    I also am not saying you’re going to hell, because I don’t believe in hell. Or heaven.

    Sadly, good and bad people don’t get their final karmic justice. They just die. At least that’s how I see it.

  23. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:34 am | | Reply

    Yeah, I believe that democracy means people elect their leaders.

    That doesn’t happen in China. So, to me, that’s not democratic at all. If you’re going to say that anything that involves an election is democratic, then you’re diluting the term into meaninglessness. I also don’t think that, regardless of how the party installs leaders, if the people don’t elect them then it’s not an election.

    If you couldn’t tell, I don’t have a lot of respect for the Chinese government. In fact, I eagerly await the revolution that will overthrow the CCP.

    But that’s a different debate, so I’ll stop it there. This isn’t a post on politics.

  24. David
    David September 3, 2012 at 10:35 am | | Reply

    I know a lot of white men who think along those lines too, particularly white American men! Of course in Asia, white expat American wives married to sexist white expat American males dont do the dishes too. It is usually done by the Filipina or Indonesian maid! I was told this by a young expat white American wife in her thirties on a flight two months ago from Singapore to Tokyo. Yep, it is the Filipina or Indonesian woman’s work! She even said that her Filipina maid disappeared without doing the dishes and about six months later she was in America married to an American guy. I did not ask who did the dishes…she was already too pissed, she might have complained to the flight attendants that I was bothering her!

  25. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:38 am | | Reply

    Sadly, that is true. Plenty of American men (white or not) also have very sexist attitudes.

    It’ll stop when education addresses this issue, societies adopt egalitarianism as a moral virtue, and women stop tolerating sexist behavior.

    That’s true around the world. The best you can do is be steadfast in your refusal to marry or stay with someone with such attitudes, no matter where they are from.

  26. Henry Yeh
    Henry Yeh September 3, 2012 at 10:39 am | | Reply

    Believe me, on average, Mexican men are FAR worse.

  27. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:45 am | | Reply

    I had some trouble with my two Indian ex-boyfriends, as well (I used to live in India, too). One got mad at me for disagreeing with him in public – even though I did so politely – because a woman disagreeing with a man in public makes the man look bad. Of course, that means that in public, the man’s opinions and decisions always win out and the woman can’t say anything until they’re alone. That is a situation ripe for control problems, and it wasn’t OK with me. So…we broke up. The second one was all “I really agree with the mother from ‘My Big Fat Greek Wedding’ who said ‘the man is the head but the woman is the neck’. The woman can have power but you have to let the man stand on top because that’s the natural way”.

    Yeah…no. Another one bites the dust.

    Not all Indian men are like this, of course, but my experiences were not good. I am sure you’d also find plenty of good men in China, Mexico or wherever…and plenty of bad.

  28. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 10:54 am | | Reply

    “Yeah, I believe that democracy means people elect their leaders.”

    Then I guess you believe that a society where paramilitary thugs coerce or even force people into voting are a “democracy”. Yes, there are many such regimes.

    And even in the states, The People, do not elect their leaders. Most people don’t vote. And even if they did, there is no one that really represents their views because all the major parties are on the side of corporate interests.

    And besides, in the US, at least for presidential elections, the voters (not the people) do not get to decide. It is the electoral college that decides. That’s how GW Bush could win the 2004 elections even when Gore won the popular vote.

    So though the top leaders in China are elected through indirect means, they are done so in the US too (for the president of the US)
    That doesn’t sound very democratic to me.

    ” If you’re going to say that anything that involves an election is democratic, then you’re diluting the term into meaninglessness. ”

    Umm… No. I didn’t say that. I said that just because it isn’t democratic doesn’t mean it ain’t an election. That has a different meaning than “anything involves an election is democratic” which is something I don’t believe. many elections are clearly not democratic (such as using force to force voters to vote a certain way or using propaganda etc).

    And if you couldn’t tell, I don’t have a lot of respect for the US government, but that’s a whole different story.

  29. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:58 am | | Reply

    Well, no, I don’t believe that countries where paramilitary thugs coerce people into voting are democracies, because in those cases the people aren’t electing their leaders.

    Just because someone forces you to vote doesn’t mean you’re making a choice.

    A true democracy is one in which people elect their leaders – which implies that they do so of their own volition, not by coercion.

    And by those standards, China is still not a democracy, and no, I still don’t think the leaders installed by the party are properly elected.

    I don’t have a lot of respect for the US government either, so we agree there. But at least it’s something of a true democracy: I can choose who to vote for or not to vote at all, and no harm will come to me for choosing/not choosing a specific candidate. That’s still better than the farce that is the Chinese government.

  30. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 11:02 am | | Reply

    I’m also not a fan of “if you believe X, you must believe Y” because so often, the two concepts are only related in the mind of the person saying that phrase. Like “if you hate sexism, you must hate housewives” or “if you don’t think the USA is exceptional, you hate freedom” or “if you don’t like Obama, you’re racist” or “if you were against the war in Iraq, you are don’t support the troops” or “if you think Taiwan is an independent country and should remain so, then you don’t understand China”. Same with “if you believe a democracy is a system where people elect their leaders, then you must believe that countries where thugs force people to vote for a specific candidate are democracies”…no, not at all.

  31. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 11:03 am | | Reply

    It seems that you are just speaking in word games. ‘Election’ doesn’t mean voting without coercion.

    Many people vote (elect) leaders while being coerced to do so by their media. Look at how many people in the US are coerced by politicians, religious leaders and their media to vote a certain way. Does that mean that the US doesn’t have any elections?

    No. It means the US has elections that aren’t very democratic which gets back to my basic point above. Just because you have elections doesn’t necessarily mean you have a democracy. These are two different concepts.

  32. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 11:05 am | | Reply

    Well, I disagree (being “coerced” by the media? Come on, different media outlets are partisan in different ways but that is not “coercion”. Even if it is strong encouragement, it’s not the same as being forced to vote for Candidate X – say, Robert Mugabe – at gunpoint), but this is truly a different debate. I propose we leave it there. This is not a political blog nor is it a political post.

  33. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 11:06 am | | Reply

    I also don’t think I’m playing word games – I’m defining words by what words, you know, mean. We can disagree about “elections” in China, but that’s as far as I’ll go.

  34. Dan
    Dan September 3, 2012 at 11:07 am | | Reply

    This is a good article this week on subject of rape – http://www.economist.com/node/21561883. It discusses how the concept is different in countries.
    I would say gender equality is achieved through grass root movement in many western democratic societies. Bruce pointed out you needed to give women voices in the system. China is a very different case. Traditionally women were very much repressed until not so long ago. The party has agenda for women from the beginning. I want to draw your attention to social classes besides cultures and political systems.

    Based on what Jocelyn said, I noticed many western women who have feminist views married Chinese men. I don’t know if she is a feminist. But it is one observation I had. Maybe it has something to do with being more liberal.

    Jenna, I am not against voicing opinions. Women issues are advanced by many outspoken feminists in the west. After all, these are your own issues too. China does not really have or tolerate similar activists. If you look at Muslim countries, I can easily say most of them are sexist. I understand you are trying to point out Chinese men are less restrained to have sexism attitudes, which I agree.

  35. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 11:09 am | | Reply

    While I do not believe China and Taiwan are the same country, or totally the same culture (they do share a cultural history, though, I’ll admit that), in Taiwan progress in women’s rights was attained due to women speaking out – it wasn’t something the government planned. Taiwanese women can and do speak out, and a lot has been achieved.

    If Taiwan, which shares so much culturally with China, can do that, so can China. I do think the culture is capable of tolerating it, because I’ve seen it happen.

  36. naomi
    naomi September 3, 2012 at 11:27 am | | Reply

    What a wonderful man you have! Hold onto him!!! By the way, does he have any brothers, cousins or friends who also love to do the dishes???! ;->

  37. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 11:27 am | | Reply

    Coercion doesn’t always mean by the end of a gun point. There is such a thing as “coercive persuasion” as is employed by propaganda as was my usage. That’s a common usage of the term.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

    “Mind control (also known as brainwashing, coercive persuasion, mind abuse, menticide, thought control, or thought reform) refers to a process in which a group or individual ‘systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated.'[1] The term has been applied to any tactic, psychological or otherwise, which can be seen as subverting an individual’s sense of control over their own thinking, behavior, emotions or decision making.”

  38. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 11:32 am | | Reply

    “coerce”

    “3. to dominate or control, especially by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.”

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/coerce

  39. Dan
    Dan September 3, 2012 at 11:44 am | | Reply

    @ Melektaus
    I think there are some universal principles. Where Jenna comes from, those principles are often talked about and reminded. Yes, people can be brainwashed in a democracy without realizing it.

    I would extend this further to point out the recent resurgence of interests in Confuciusm reflect people’s desires to hold on to a set of principles. Today’s China is quite a mess in that regard.

  40. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 11:50 am | | Reply

    I agree that there are “universal principles” but I fail to see how that is relevant to what I or Cody said. We weren’t discussing “universal principles”.

  41. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian September 3, 2012 at 11:51 am | | Reply

    @ jenna cody, for a sexist like you, ” you don’t like it, DON’T BE SEXIST”, (you obviously don’t like it, you don’t be sexist ok?) you have certainly missed the joke, sexist or not. I don’t believe in god either. How about evolution? Don’t tell this is sexist too. But why should China want to learn to be non-sexist the jenna cody way? Sexism is beautiful. Ask evolution or don’t ask at all. But jenna cody, soldier on. Now, please don’t say I am being sexist. I just am.

  42. Dan
    Dan September 3, 2012 at 12:09 pm | | Reply

    @melektaus
    That is my way of admitting Jenna is right to larger extent. She also admit it is not just culture in play. I will leave the discussion here.

  43. melektaus
    melektaus September 3, 2012 at 12:15 pm | | Reply

    Right about what? We weren’t even talking about universal values so it can’t be that.

  44. Dan
    Dan September 3, 2012 at 12:28 pm | | Reply

    @Jocelyn
    Good antidote.

  45. Sveta
    Sveta September 3, 2012 at 12:37 pm | | Reply

    Growing up in Russia, my dad sounded very similar to your ex, that is he viewed everything as women’s work and wouldn’t help my mom out with anything. Few years ago he changed and helps her out with everything.

  46. Teemeah
    Teemeah September 3, 2012 at 2:04 pm | | Reply

    I think being sexist does not depend on te country you come from, and you won’t find less sexist guys in Western countries than in Eastern. I have seen quite a few guys in my own country having the same views on “women’s work”. You don’t need to be Chinese/Asian for this. Of course cultural heritage is always in the root but a lot more depends on the family a child is grown up in. Despite the culture of the nation, if a kid sees that mom and dad share the chores, it is going to become natural. But the sole fact that a kid grows up in an environment where he sees otherwise does not mean he might not change his notions later on. A lot depends on one’s personality too. I know two brothers, one has this extremely sexist view on where a woman’s place is, and the brother is totally different, more easygoing and shrugs his shoulders if the dishes are left to him to wash. I believe it is up to a person’s mentality and nature and not entirely up to customs or cultural heritage.

  47. David
    David September 3, 2012 at 2:08 pm | | Reply

    “Not all Indian men are like this, of course, but my experiences were not good.”
    Jenna:
    On a different topic, did their parents know that you were dating them? Indians are not very accepting although there is a tendency to be more accepting of white people than fellow Indians of a different caste or language. What was your experience? Back in 1979 a Jain family from Mumbai was not allowed to see a South Indian. However, twenty five years later her daughter married a white guy, none other than the nephew of the Presidential candidate Ron Paul..and guess what…the Indian family had no problems with that union.

  48. Bruce
    Bruce September 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm | | Reply

    Naomi,

    That person is ME 🙂 lol hehehhehehe. I love doing dishwashes!!! I love to vacuum the home and clean up every inch of the home. I mow lawn and maintain everything in the home including plumbing etc etc. I can cook if I want too :). I’m the ultimate husband in the world. I wear a tie during the day and hold a hammer at night. LOL.. It’s all true !!!!!!!!!!!

    Bruce 🙂

  49. Ben J
    Ben J September 3, 2012 at 2:53 pm | | Reply

    “Sometimes one man’s ‘woman’s work’ is another man’s work he would never let a woman do.” Beautifully said!

    The first guy you dated should be slapped and slammed. While it was nice he was a gentleman in the entire part of the day, he spoiled it at the end. It’s like he baked a beautiful cake, put the frosting and decorations and spelled out “I love you” in blue icing, then just dropped the whole cake on your head. If he didn’t know you were a feminist then, he sure as hell knows now.

    Asian men tend to be on the self-racist side, myself included, and it’s pretty obvious. Your article reminded me of the infamous “Paper Tigers” article in New York Magazine I read back about a year ago. It definitely shows some character and gives a broad approach when looking at Asian male racism as a whole. There was one interesting dude in that article who was mentioned at the beginning, and he wrote a response to Paper Tigers. Go check it out here. It should open up some more points of discussion when it comes to Asian Male self-racism (and sexism too!) http://www.abcsofattraction.com/blog/asian-american-paper-tigers-by-wesley-yang-jt-tran-response-to-new-york-magazine/

  50. Maree
    Maree September 3, 2012 at 2:54 pm | | Reply

    Very interesting piece! Today I met a chinese girl at my work, she does all the house work. Since staying here in my country she has admitted to me that she starts to see that maybe she should not be obligated to do them all by herself every single time! I told her today my boyfriend is Chinese as well, but he wont let me do the house chores by myself! He will always help me cook and clean and sometimes does more than I do! Which i admit also stunned me at first. Yes I sort of stereotyped and thought ah a Chinese dude would never do the house chores (i will never listen to stereotypes ever again!!) haha! Because my boyfriend has proven me wrong too many times! I asked him why he is always so helpful around the house, be it with the cooking or cleaning. His response…”a man must look after his wife” 🙂 that’s his personal view i guess because I asked him if many Chinese boys were like him and he says some are and some are not, everyone is different! When I told the Chinese girl this today she was so surprised and told me immediately he must be from Shanghai….LOL, haha! WHich he is is not.

  51. AG
    AG September 3, 2012 at 7:07 pm | | Reply

    Shanghai men were famous for doing house chores. Is that true?

  52. dingjie
    dingjie September 3, 2012 at 7:12 pm | | Reply

    @Maree …….Yes everyone is different!………..

  53. ygr
    ygr September 3, 2012 at 7:22 pm | | Reply

    One day I was having breakfast at a friend’s place with 3 male friends. One of them had cooked breakfast, so after we finished eating, my other male friend ordered the one who hadn’t been cooking to do the dishes together with him. I was like: “Well, I’m not gonna do anything because I’m the woman”, and my friend was all like: “You must have learned that from Chinese woman”.

    What I’m trying to say here is that attitudes regarding who should do the dishes/housework vary to a great deal in China. I’ve seen girlfriends do the dishes although they already cooked for everyone, but I’ve also seen it the other way – guys doing all the work. Some tend to have “traditional” views of who should do the housework and some just don’t, and they aren’t necessarily from Shanghai.

    Compared to my home country the difference doesn’t seem very big though. Maybe you’d tend to think that in a European country it would be quite different, but when people gather to have dinner, it’s usually the women who get up and do the dishes afterwards (excluding me).

  54. Dan
    Dan September 3, 2012 at 7:36 pm | | Reply

    You also see this dude (US) and lad (UK) culture around. Many women tolerate and even endorse it because it seems more fun. You gotta love culture differences.

  55. Dan
    Dan September 3, 2012 at 8:01 pm | | Reply

    @ygr
    I think the one child policy in China has done its work.
    Social class matters too. I met some kids being chauffeured around like any other rich brats in the west. China’s poverty in the past has destroyed many values. In countries like UK, people are acting in egalitarian ways while being conscious of differences.

  56. dingjie
    dingjie September 3, 2012 at 8:36 pm | | Reply

    18-year-old to 22-year-old
    Some of Qingdao woman Height above 170CM

  57. mira
    mira September 3, 2012 at 10:40 pm | | Reply

    There was a time when the word sexism was not a word people used or knew about. What had to be done was done to live to survive. Women got up made breakfast, cleaned, washed, looked after the children. Men went to work, earned money, lifted heavy objects. Men and women had roles and these roles were around for decades. Did they know better? Did they question? Could they do anything about it? Did they want to do anything about it?

    I grew up in a European household my mother is strong and quite independant , she not only did all the housework and cooking but she also held down a full time job and yet her thoughts, ideas and actions are that of a woman who’s living in a sexist environment but to her she does what she does because that’s how she was brought up but also she does it for the love of her family. Have the immediate male memebrs in her family been spoilt damn right they have but their attitude towards this (well at least infront of my mother) isn’t one of “sexism” it’s one or respect and fondness becaause everything she does is for her family.

  58. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:48 pm | | Reply

    Umm, “sexism” wasn’t a word that existed in previous generations because it was accepted that women had second class status. That’s not better. That’s not a good thing! Sure, men did what men had to do and women did too, but men had at least some choice of career and women did not: they did what they had to do because they weren’t allowed by society to be breadwinners (although many women did work outside the home, often unofficially), to hold property, to have credit lines or even to vote. That’s not something we should be nostalgic for!

    You say your mom had a job and did all the housework and cooking – and the men, while they loved her, were spoiled.

    I hate to break it to ya, but that’s sexism. The men in your family were sexist. It doesn’t matter that they loved her and respected her – you can love someone and still have sexist attitudes that the person you love must deal with. If they were spoiled and did not help with the housework despite everyone having full-time jobs, they were sexist. The woman had to do more work because it was “her” work, which meant more burden for her and less on the men.

    I don’t care how much a man loves you for doing more work because he doesn’t want to do his fair share, that’s sexist and, to me, unacceptable.

  59. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:50 pm | | Reply

    And, you know, the woman might have done those things because she felt she had to, but do you really think she *wanted* to? If she lived in a time when it was normal to expect the man to do his share at home, a time when it was easier for women to be breadwinners, that she would have still thought it was perfectly fine to do all of that work? Even in her generation, do you really think that she was always perfectly OK with this? Do you think she didn’t notice how unfair it was?

    I can assure you she almost certainly did – she just didn’t say anything because it wasn’t acceptable to speak up back then.

    So please, take off the rose-colored glasses. Those times were horrible for women. That’s why times changed.

  60. jenna cody
    jenna cody September 3, 2012 at 10:56 pm | | Reply

    David – one set of parents did know I was dating their son, the other didn’t, because we didn’t date long enough for him to tell them (also, we were in the USA, they were in India). If we’d dated longer I would have expected him to tell them – if he refused, we would have broken up.

    melek – “coercion” by propaganda is absolutely not the same thing as coercion by gunpoint, and anyway, I would disagree that the press is entirely propaganda. There is a lot of propaganda, although I do believe in the USA a lot of it comes from the biases of the news organizations themselves, not pressure from political parties (at least not to a large enough extent that we need to worry about it – worry about organizational bias, not that the Dems or the Reps are telling us what to think). I can vote for Obama, or Romney, or a third party, or not at all, and nobody’s going to stop me. If I think one news outlet is biased, I find another. If I think they all are, I watch/read enough from all ends of the bias to get a clear middle picture. I really don’t think this is a huge problem in the USA (although it *is* a huge problem in China where propaganda is basically all the news there is aside from occasional mumblings on the Web).

    And, in that sense, the USA is more democratic than China – it is hard to be *less* democratic than China.

    As for that word “election”, words have not just a definition but a tone, connotation and implication. The implication of the phrase “they were elected” is that they were elected by the people they govern. In the case of China, that’s not true, so I don’t think “elected” is the right term. Really.

  61. dingjie
    dingjie September 3, 2012 at 11:39 pm | | Reply

    China is
    Eastern The United States is the Westerners
    …. Do you think the same will not it strange?
    I want to tell you ………. Confucius from Shandong Taiwan on behalf of the Chinese culture?
    Terra-Cotta Warriors From Xi’an
    You should go to learn the history of China …
    A group Fujianese descendants representative of the Chinese culture.
    You’re so cute ..

  62. mira
    mira September 4, 2012 at 3:26 am | | Reply

    @ jenna
    “I can assure you she almost certainly did” really you can assure me !!!! Do you know this woman? Have you spoken to her? Do you know her thoughts? Her ideas? Her feelings? Have you lived a portion of her life or is this irrelivant when it comes to assuring me “she almost certainly did”

    The period I am talking about is 20-30 years ago so she was not afraid to tell it like it is and go one in one with anyone whether it be a man or a woman.

    Yes times were horrible for women and yet there’ll be some who’d say no it wasn’t that horrible so tell me who are we to disagree with them or will you say they are looking at their lives through rose-coloured glasses?

    Men (not all) are sexist however women can be as bad if not worse when it comes to “sexist remarks” about other women but it’s not “sexism” when a women says it

  63. melektaus
    melektaus September 4, 2012 at 9:22 am | | Reply

    ““coercion” by propaganda is absolutely not the same thing as coercion by gunpoint”

    I never claimed they were the same thing.

    ” I would disagree that the press is entirely propaganda. ”

    Never disagreed with this either.

    “If I think one news outlet is biased, I find another. If I think they all are, I watch/read enough from all ends of the bias to get a clear middle picture. I really don’t think this is a huge problem in the USA (although it *is* a huge problem in China where propaganda is basically all the news there is aside from occasional mumblings on the Web).”

    You don’t believe that propaganda is a major problem in the US? That’s not surprising because most people who are influenced by it don’t even realize they are. that’s the hallmark of effective propaganda…

    “As for that word “election”, words have not just a definition but a tone, connotation and implication. ”

    Exactly.

    And ‘election’ is the right term.

    Election does not imply “by the people”. If that was the case than the US would not have any presidential elections. Corporations also have elections but that doesn’t mean they are democratic. It’s, you know, just the meaning of what the word means.

  64. melektaus
    melektaus September 4, 2012 at 9:25 am | | Reply

    Coercion:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/coercion/

    “Sometimes the term “coercion” is used in popular speech with a quite broad sense. For instance, one hears “coercion” used to describe social pressures (e.g., the need to conform to peer expectations or to placate one’s parents); or the constraining or manipulative effects of advertising, one’s upbringing, or the structuring of society more generally (e.g., the necessity of participating in a capitalist economy). It is also sometimes treated as a quite general concept encompassing almost any sort of interpersonal infringement on one’s rights.”

    You don’t have a monopoly on how words are used despite the fact that you may wish words to only mean what you think they ought to mean. It’s, you know, the meaning that is accepted by standard conventions that counts.

  65. Dan
    Dan September 4, 2012 at 9:59 am | | Reply

    We are starting to attend seminar. So it seems. More related to a previous conversation.

    Traditionally, gender roles were defined for women as childrearers and man as bread-earners. Let’s not get into how this comes to shape. It does limit career choices for women until today. Women tend to give up their careers because of family responsibilities and choose career less risky with less long term prospects. Most women probably prefer to work outside their homes. You also see many negotiated their roles with their husbands and choose to stay home. It is called a partnership. Asian women do this as well. It is common for Asian women to control family finance when the men brought home their pays. If you are “Mad Men” fan, feminism and sexism has a big part in that show.

    Broadly speaking, public and private institutions would need to change to cater to working parents -both men and women. For example, if quality child care is affordable and accessible, women would be more at ease at work. Men would not need to stress over this whole issue either. It is still far acceptable to have stay-home moms than the other way around. This is simply the reality.

  66. Bruce
    Bruce September 4, 2012 at 10:13 am | | Reply

    I know majority of Chinese/Asian men will cook ,wash dishes and clean including myself and I am serious about his! How do I know this? I go to their homes all the time and they even come to my house to cook. There is why there are so many sterotypes about Chinese/Asian men are absolutely NOT true! All of my brothers cook and clean dishes. Only men and women who are spoiled will not do it or you are rich and have a maid at home. It’s a different society now. Men and women have to work together in a relationship. Sometimes, women are really the breadwinners nowadays because some jobs are disappearing for men and some situations really make it harder for men to excel. Some women really don’t mind providing the money for the families as long as they are happy. Some yrs, I made more money than my wife and other yrs she made more. The key is that the money is going into one account. I know some marriages have separate accounts. I’ve learned that you will run into a lot of problems when you hold separate accounts.

  67. melektaus
    melektaus September 4, 2012 at 10:34 am | | Reply

    It is only a “seminar” to those lacking the ability to understand it.

  68. melektaus
    melektaus September 4, 2012 at 10:35 am | | Reply

    This is true, Bruce. In my experience, I have never known a single Chinese man that refused to do the dishes, cook or clean.

  69. bbczeitgeist
    bbczeitgeist September 4, 2012 at 10:40 am | | Reply

    Isnt it ironic the author complains about not wanting someone who refuses to wash the dishes, yet she refuses to do it herself. Why didnt you do offer to do the dishes instead? Or don’t feminists do dishes? Its obvious why these particular types of women that seek foreign men are rejects in their own country to men of their own race – they have a stinky uncompromising attitude and huge chip on their shoulder that men of their own country/race run a mile from them, instead they seek ‘Asian’ men who are perceived to be a weaker race (limited English, slimmer physique, gentle nerd) – they believe they can dominate and control and manipulate him through White privilege. The authors partner is visibly shorter and weaker than her, I rest my case.

  70. Dan
    Dan September 4, 2012 at 10:41 am | | Reply

    @ melektaus
    I don’t doubt you are intelligent. Jenna has a lot of good points too. I do not have to like all of them. I think you can be more graceful. Best way to ignore my ignorance.

  71. Dan
    Dan September 4, 2012 at 10:51 am | | Reply

    @ bbczeitgeist
    To be fair, will you do the dishes when someone tells you it is the man’s job? I think Jocelyn is using an example to show the stereotypes are not always true. But she did date a guy who refused to wash dishes. I met Chinese guys who would not do dishes out of millions who would do. People should come to this blog to promote mutual understanding. What is the glory of personal attack?

  72. melektaus
    melektaus September 4, 2012 at 11:55 am | | Reply

    Sadly, some ignorant, flaky people refuse to keep their ignorance to themselves and instead can’t help themselves but make a show of it.

  73. Dan
    Dan September 4, 2012 at 12:01 pm | | Reply

    Dude, this place is all yours.

    @ Jocelyn, keep it up! I know your voice will be less lonely over time.

  74. dingjie
    dingjie September 4, 2012 at 5:47 pm | | Reply

    haha Chinese born after 1990 More open
    . I want to say Everyone is different
    … Who does not know that the Western media
    … Daily reported that China’s scandal
    Rarely reported in China’s good
    Want to know China He(She) can come to China

    @ Jocelyn You should send the point long good-looking Chinese men
    Maybe my photos can lend you
    I … lol

  75. bbczeitgeist
    bbczeitgeist September 4, 2012 at 6:14 pm | | Reply

    ‘Almost’ every woman expects the man to pay for a dinner date, so do you think men have a chip on the shoulder like the author and do ‘a Jocelyn’ by dumping any woman that refuses to pay for dinner date…moving from woman to woman until he finds a woman weak enough that he can control by getting her pay for the dinner date? That’s basically what the author did, plus asserted female white privilege in such an unequal IR relationship with a short weak Chinese man desperate for US citizenship.

  76. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian September 4, 2012 at 6:29 pm | | Reply

    I think we had had enough of this sexist thing. Everybody has his/her own opinion (and bias) and nobody is going to budge. There will be no end to it all. That’s human nature. But why get carried away? Like I said if you feel comfortable to do something, blardy well do it lah. No need to grumble and complain and blame the other. And if you aren’t comfortable, blardy well no need to do it lah! No need to justify, hem and haw and feel bad because if you don’t you are sexist. That said, it was helluva lot of fun (though a little tiresome, sometimes) reading all the views. Thanks melektaus (am more inclined to side you though, my bias, yes) and jenna cody (the forever feisty fighter).

  77. Dan
    Dan September 4, 2012 at 6:35 pm | | Reply

    @ bbczeitgeist
    You opened my eyes to new possibilities. Time to schedule that weekly visit. Them UK girls traumatized you or something? You came here to vent your revenge?

    Almost every Asian girl expected me to pay for dinner at every date. White girls don’t actually.

  78. Bruce
    Bruce September 4, 2012 at 7:02 pm | | Reply

    Jocelyn does dishes ,too. I know she does. I used to know men and women who didn’t wash or clean at all. Right now, they all do. If you live under my roof and you don’t clean dishes and pick up yourself. I don’t care if you are a woman or a man , I will kick your lazy ass out the door. In our family, we are taught to be self efficient. There are no lazy asses in our family. We don’t teach our family members to be lazy and have any entitlement. You are putting them out there in the societies to fail 100%. I washed dishes when I was 7 yrs old and I knew how to cook a little bit already ;however, kids (14 to 25 yrs old ) nowadays are bunch of useless, entitled leaches ( just sit there and eat and become fat asses). If you don’t cook, clean and be self efficient, you must be rich or else you will have a hard life. Why? How many times you can eat out per week? I know all you guys clean dishes here.

  79. Bruce
    Bruce September 4, 2012 at 7:28 pm | | Reply

    @ bbczeitgeist,

    How do you know that Jocelyn is that kind of person? If you say that she is that kind of person then you haven’t traveled around the world often and don’t talk to enough people to understand people at all. We can’t just judge by an article or by the way a person talk. I never judge a person short term. I will judge a person long term and see if he/she is really that person. Imagine either you or your wife is working and you stay home for 3 days. Dishes and trashes laying all over! Mold growing on dishes. How do you feel about this?
    F… ! I will explode! What the F… are you doing at home all this time??If you are sick, everyone understands but you are strong like an ox. If that person is my gf, I either run or disappear for sure. I want to write more but I feel like it is useless to do that. You just have to experience it to understand. This is called experience of life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  80. Bruce
    Bruce September 4, 2012 at 7:47 pm | | Reply

    When you guys read my comments and say that I’m a jerk or a mean person then you are dead wrong. I’m lenient within reasons but open minded. I can be a country boy from Canton, China but city boys are more country than me . lol 🙂

  81. Dan
    Dan September 4, 2012 at 7:56 pm | | Reply

    I think most Chinese did not grow up in an environment where open discussion is the norm and tolerated. Things get carried away quite easily. It is not about winning. In countries like US, you can hardly force your opinions on others. People in general are far more critical.

    Jocelyn, great blog. Thanks.

  82. cvaguy
    cvaguy September 4, 2012 at 11:17 pm | | Reply

    Interesting to see people have so much to say about washing dishes.
    Don’t know it has anything to do with sexist, feminist, or loser. There is a tradition and there is an individual choice. I choose to cook and wash dishes if necessary, just like any house choir. I don’t like to do them but will not avoid the obligation. In China, the tradition is drink and smoke. But I choose to refuse both. And I call those who do both LOSER. Don’t like to argue about something not important, so here are so some observations :
    1. My friend dated an Indian man, he never offered to carry her stuff when they went out. I saw her following him several feet behind carrying large heavy bag while he was empty handed. That day I witnessed tradition Indian culture the man chose to carry on. She eventually married a white man who treats her like a princess.
    2. I met my Chinese friend’s wife sometimes ago. She was pregnant and he was so sweet that he did every house choir plus more to make her comfortable, yes that includes washing dishes.
    3. All of my friends from Shanghai, so far, are good at cooking and they all wash dishes.

  83. Dan
    Dan September 5, 2012 at 8:01 am | | Reply

    It is not entirely about dish washing to begin with. If any Chinese man think Jocelyn is smacking their faces, you are not helping yourselves. Acting up is only reenforcing stereotypes. When someone throws herself out there to help promote a cause, you can at least be respectful. Asian men are quite invisible in general. If you don’t know how to speak for yourself, you can learn. Anyone tries to say s* behind a computer is a big loser in real life.

    cvaguy, I am not talking about you either. I actually think people from southern China tend not to be over-sensitive about male images and take on house chores easily.
    This is my last post.

  84. melektaus
    melektaus September 5, 2012 at 8:57 am | | Reply
  85. Tiffany
    Tiffany September 5, 2012 at 9:19 am | | Reply

    One of the reasons I didn’t want to marry a Chinese man..

  86. Bruce
    Bruce September 5, 2012 at 10:03 am | | Reply

    hahahahah soo freaking funny!! You won’t marry a man because he doesn’t do dishes. !!! hahahaha lmao. I didn’t do many things before but now I do. Everything is learned and if you’re willing to learn.

  87. Tiffany
    Tiffany September 5, 2012 at 4:04 pm | | Reply

    Correction, Bruce, not because he doesn’t do dishes, it’s the mentality behind not wanting to do it I tried to stay from. Granted, many men are more domesticated after years of marriage and they find domestic chores are theraputic!! These men go through the relationship and recognize the value of equal partnership – when I was growing up, that sort of equality was not visible in a very typical male-dominated Chinese family.

  88. Bruce
    Bruce September 5, 2012 at 5:50 pm | | Reply

    I understand everything you say about mentality behind it. Some men talk very sweet regarding washing dishes and cooking after marriage but instead they are useless and lazy. Once married, just talks only so the wives get pissed. Many women were impressed in the past that I knew everything. Until now, alot of people still can’t believe I know how to do so many things. From sewing clothes , cutting down a gigantic tree to taking out a car engine etc. So being a man’s man is not simple. I am a clean person so I like my home to be vacuumed and cleaned. Please date your man/woman for 3 yrs before marriage. Some women/men are phonies when it comes to marriage material partners. Men like me like to do everything and learn everything. People think that I dress nice and wear a tie to work and I don’t house work. If I’m a multi millionaire , I will still do it. I was taught when I was a little boy to rely on myself ( it’s faster to do it yourself). In my family, all men are self efficient. We learned how to fix things. We know how to cook and clean after ourselves. We learn how to use guns/firearms for self defense and for hunting etc. People say that I have so much knowledge and I work so hard. I don’t feel it’s hard work to me because I’m not used to sitting around on my ass all day long. The question is are you willing to do it or not. Some men will have a lazy ass mentality until everything rots. Most men will use the phrase ” Before I didn’t have to do it”. Tell them that you even know how to use the word ” Before”. Now is now and before is before you lazy ass. suck it up you fool

  89. Bruce
    Bruce September 5, 2012 at 6:02 pm | | Reply

    There is a chinese saying” if a cow is not thirsty , how can you push its head to drink water” . It means you are at your lowest point in life. You have no ways out so you must do whatever to survive! Freaking mom and dad are not around to serve you so you have to serve yourself. There are lots of things I can’t say here because I don’t want to hurt some people’s feelings. If I say some more that means I’m putting money in your pocket and I won’t say it. I rather have you experience life by yourself. Have a few intensive arguments with your wives/families and you will know what I talk about.

    Bruce

  90. cvaguy
    cvaguy September 5, 2012 at 11:33 pm | | Reply

    People change, more or less, but as the Chinese saying goes: The color of a mountain can change easily, yet the personal trait may never change.
    Skills are learned, attitudes are born with. If you see red flags, there is no double. Try to name one person that changed the attitute in this comment session 🙂

  91. Canadian-Born Chinese Guy
    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy September 6, 2012 at 12:38 am | | Reply

    Correct me if I am wrong, but both men and women are expected to fulfill gender-specific roles in China… so it looks to me that sexism goes both ways. I would guess that Chinese men who do not meet certain societal expectations are not considered worthy?

  92. Canadian-Born Chinese Guy
    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy September 6, 2012 at 12:41 am | | Reply

    … societal expectations of Chinese men such as owning a house, earning a decent salary, etc..

  93. Tiffany
    Tiffany September 6, 2012 at 10:20 am | | Reply

    Marriage isn’t easy or divorce rate would have gone down or not existed. When I married my American Irish husband, whatever I wanted, I saw in him; after 24 years, we have grown out of our youth and I still see he is the man I have always wanted. I don’t believe he remains the way he was, it’s the journey that shape the marital experience for us. There are days I am glad we have our own separate space in the house but I have always feel rooted when we are together.

  94. aiyangxifu
    aiyangxifu September 6, 2012 at 11:47 am | | Reply

    Wow, this blog has changed into some kind of public forum now.

  95. TNT
    TNT September 6, 2012 at 3:54 pm | | Reply

    If you insist to understand another culture through Eurocentric cultural chauvinism, it leads to distortions. Each culture should take on its own terms. Chinese value systems have arisen in radically different social and historical circumstances. It can not be understood fully if one insists on approach from within one’s own culture perspectives. Chinese cultures does not have same commitment to objectivity.

    Real understandings can be achieved through adopting different perspectives from both sides.

  96. bbczeitgeist
    bbczeitgeist September 6, 2012 at 5:15 pm | | Reply

    This is a backwards dehumanising blog promoting racial fetish, racial sexual exoticism and racial stereotyping. No normal Chinese person would feel an ounce of respect being the specimen subject of this tasteless blog, except maybe humble short weak FOBs such as the authors husband.

  97. Bruce
    Bruce September 6, 2012 at 8:14 pm | | Reply

    bbczeitgeist,

    What do you get from bashing this blog? You gain nothing. I guess you consider yourself a tall, strong british born chinese. Please show everyone here how strong you are. When you use the word “FOBs” this way then you also look down on another chinese/asian person. I don’t know maybe your eyes are always above your forehead. Being arrogant is good but over doing will get you in trouble. Tell me who doesn’t have a fetish? I think we all should be united as one. As a chinese man, I always feel that Chinese people in general are not united enough. We are like a handful of loose sand flowing thru our fingers. I don’t care if you’re born in Great Britain , U.S.A or Africa, we must be united. Do you feel special and have special treatment if you’re from different country? You are not special and no one should have any special treatment. We shouldn’t step down on another Chinese/asian.

  98. april
    april September 6, 2012 at 8:19 pm | | Reply

    Washing dishes I have always considered for a mate because I will do all the cooking, this is woman’s work, I love to cook and most men don’t or can’t, but if I cook you’re washing the dishes, I’ve never found a man to find this as a problem, maybe because I’m an awesome cook haha!
    But no matter what race they’ve been all the men in my life have maybe been slow to do the dishes, but always end up doing them. Along with taking out the trash, I don’t ask for alot, but it’s your job to do the dishes and take out the trash, haha.

  99. szewei
    szewei September 6, 2012 at 8:22 pm | | Reply

    oh gawd! can somebody ban this BBCz mofo from posting here 4 the rest of his life? this is getting out of hand n i had enough of his bull**** c**p. argh!

  100. szewei
    szewei September 6, 2012 at 8:24 pm | | Reply

    back 2 topic, i dont mind washing dishes n taking out garbage. in fact, i enjoy doing that more when i help out my family household chores. i dont have sexism mindset anymore s much s last time.

  101. Sveta
    Sveta September 6, 2012 at 10:20 pm | | Reply

    bbczeitgeist , stop insulting Jocelyn and her husband. You don’t know them, and if you hate the blog so much why are you here? Shouldn’t you go to the blogs you like instead of ones you can’t stand? I enjoy reading this blog and learning that its possible to be a married AM/WF couple. Jocelyn has never put down AM on her blog and she is encouraging towards the relationship. This blog shows how much she loves and is proud of her husband. I think you might be a troll.

  102. Bruce
    Bruce September 7, 2012 at 9:38 am | | Reply

    He is 110% a troll trying to start something. He has his own god damn blog too. A REAL CHINESE PERSON has more respect than this. I could go to a porn site but I didn’t. I come here is because I’m married and I like subjects react to couples. I know everyone is tired and I’m tired about life sometimes. Even I’m a tall and strong person and I love to teach others how to be stronger physcially and mentally. Maybe it’s the culture in Britain that preying on the weak is okay. I have cousins who live in Great Britain, they told me that if you’re a chinese/minority.. You’re considered low class/ dirt. It’s just the mentality. You can’t change the ways others think of you. I have friends who are multi millionaires and poor but I never look down on anyone. Because of my attitudes, people are attracted to me. I know some chinese people who are born in foreign countries with family members working their asses decades before to give them a good life. Now these chinese people feel that they’re all that so they look down on other Chinese/ asian. This kind of attitude will get you killed or get your ass kicked either by others or by people like me. I don’t care how perfect you speak English in a foreign country. People will treat you like foreigners. Don’t give me any B.S. man. YOu know the answers .

  103. dingjie
    dingjie September 8, 2012 at 9:25 am | | Reply

    bbczeitgeist You should come from Hong Kong or Guangdong
    or fujian ? If you’re taller than 190CM Maybe you think Chinese people are short
    But if you have only 5 inches 11 inches to 6 feet 1 inch
    That you should shut up

  104. Mayte
    Mayte September 9, 2012 at 6:27 am | | Reply

    Hi there,

    I’ve been away from this for a bit and was surprised to see such response to this entry. The male/female gender roles seem like a thing of the past anymore, but maybe it’s because I’m based in Shanghai. 😉
    You really can’t complain about the men here, well…at least, not for that.

    As far as Jocelyn is concerned, I’m glad she found the man that treats her in the way she deserves to be treated. He loves her and takes care of her and it appears he enjoys doing this, so, well done, Jocelyn! I would hope this kind of strong friendship and sense of caring is something we could all have. It’s clear that Jocelyn is a lucky girl and I know that John is also a damned lucky guy. If those who only read this blog intermittently, knew the kind of fight she has in her when it comes to protecting and caring for her husband, perhaps they might see that this Chinese man (maybe not BBC, ABC, or other –C) has someone treating him right. Which IS, in effect, what their blog also seems to be promoting. That people–wait, it was said “BBCs”, be treated fairly so that one group (read: anyone other than Chinese) don’t dominate and eliminate a population or culture that is also relevant in this world.

    I guess the biggest problem I see with the argument that our acquaintance has presented, is that even in his own blog, he singles out the BBCs from the Chinese in general. He wants BBCs to be more Chinese and push for culture, etc. but calls his sister an FOB, which is insulting and makes those of us who love our Chinese counterparts, cringe.

    Perhaps I just don’t see the difference between the BBCs, ABCs, CBCs, etc. I have had the honor of meeting Chinese from all over the world, and the man I gave my heart to, is a northern Chinese from mainland China. He has traveled with me and on his own. I hear his stories when he is treated well and when he is not. I have experienced some of this with him and am the first to defend him, even if I do end up in trouble for it. I know that immigrants settling in different countries (and their children who are born there) are subjected to unfair treatment.

    I understand why BBC— is angry and fights to maintain some of his own culture. I just don’t agree with the method or slamming other people for trying to create a more peaceful place to live in. You love who you love. Borders can separate people and cultures geographically, but hearts are another matter altogether. If you’re looking to be accepted as you are, why build another wall?

  105. Bruce
    Bruce September 10, 2012 at 12:51 pm | | Reply

    To me I see no difference between FOBs and BBC,ABC etc. I know a few FOBs who have 10 times more money than chinese who were born in western countries. FOBs do work harder than ABC who are born here!!! ABC just complain too much and have entitlement issues.

    Bruce

  106. Anon
    Anon September 12, 2012 at 7:30 pm | | Reply

    I kinda have to agree with bbczeitgeist. This whole “sexist” thing yeah. Right. Who are you to say that doing the dishes is man’s work. Because that is what you are saying right?

    A couple thoughts come to mind. One is the whole toilet seat thing. A great majority of my past ex American girl friends had a problem with it. They would always complain that they had to put it down when they wanted to use the bathroom. I then would complain (only because they did) that I had to put it up. So who’s right? That’s the problem. With all intercultural relationships I know here in China they are all healthier than all the relationships I know back in the States. I truly thing it’s because of the whole feminist thing. I’m all for being equal, but not for people bitching about it. Which brings me to my second thought. Things just work here. It’s the system. It’s the way it’s set up.

    Special treatments for the sake of being equal. For instance, I believe that one thing minorities in America fight for is equality. But I guarantee you that they really don’t want it. Think about that for a sec. All the special programs for minorities would go away. You want to be equal right? Well then you shouldn’t get any special treatment. It’s all a double standard. Women want to be equal but yet want special treatment. Who cares who does the F ing dishes. How about someone just do it. And not state that I shouldn’t have to because it’s sexist to make the women do the dishes. It’s like poor people complain about being poor when they should get off their asses and do something.

    From my past I’ve had bad experiences with women who thought they were being oppressed. Why should I have to clean they would say. Then it gets twisted into the Oh your making me do it because your sexiest. Jesus. NO. That is not why I am making you do it. You have all the free time. I am working overtime.. How about you get off your rear and do something for the betterment of this household.

    Not everyone is the same. And actually nothing really matters. But I really dislike when people pull the sexist, racist, and being equal cards. I don’t bitch when I have to carry a bunch of crap for a girl. Why, because I am physically built for it. Maybe next time anyone says anything remotely close to a male gender role I should pull the sexist card. But wait, that wouldn’t work because it’s not sexiest when you are male, white, or on top of the so called “pecking order.” I guess I can’t ask people that are taller than me to reach something on a high shelf because it’s known that they have to do this, they’ve done it forever, and I guess that they shouldn’t have to.

    And you finally found a man you deserve.. Please. I deserve a hot, skinny, Japanese women that could model for Victoria Secret. No one deserves anything. We all settle. And that’s just the way it is.

    I see how happy and I mean truly happy my friends are here. Most all have kids, the wives does all the “sexist” things. They are the happiest people I know. Then I see my friends in America that can’t find dates because they only mean psycho girls, girls that want everything, to be powerful, bitch all the time, but yet want the special treatment, etc. Everyone is unhappy, yelling at each other. All the small things like who does what, and who didn’t put the toilet seat down. They all turn into big arguments which leads into huge issues then everyone breaks up.

    I’ve never once seen one of my friends here fight. Not once. The men bring home the bacon and the women cook it. It is right, well, maybe, maybe not. But it works. Yes there will be some that abuse it. Use the women in a way that I don’t agree with. Sit around and do nothing while they do sexist things like cook and clean. That I don’t agree with. But I really dislike then women refuse on the grounds of being oppressed. And yes there will be some women that abuse that.

    If we are talking about being sexist and what not, then you know what. I want maternity leave. yeah. I can’t have babies. But I want the same leave that a women would get. Maybe I can get it once every 3 years. I can take it whenever I want. Either I really have a baby, or I just get free vacation. But that’s equal right?

    I’m seriously not trolling. Just trying to have a discussion. But it will probably really make some people fired up. But that’s life.

  107. askdsk
    askdsk September 12, 2012 at 9:15 pm | | Reply

    Arguing being equal without protection is not going to work. Minority rights, for example, need to be protected because systematic discrimination always happen under so called equality for everyone. I want to bring some culture differences into this discussion. Asian women won’t see gender equality in the same way as western girls. I’ve never met one complains about the toilet seat. However, some would complain about you not having a house and a car in today’s China. Women and minorities have a lot in common in terms of equality in the west. I personally feel an Asian guy can earn big points by showing common courtesies in western countries. You can argue true equality has nothing to do with these little things. But lots of women feel at least you are acknowledging something. In the same sense, affirmative action is a way to say the system has been unfair to certain minority groups in the past. Whether it is a good enough solution is another story. Not doing anything is definitely not good for people who need it.

  108. Bruce
    Bruce September 12, 2012 at 9:44 pm | | Reply

    I ‘ve said this many many times that men and women have to coexit in order to make it work nowadays. My wife doesn’t cook BUT it’s okay!!!!!!!!!! She prepares the ingredients for me and I cook them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m NO FREAKING SHANGHAI MAN. Maybe I’m the leader for Shanghai men ( so funny lmao 🙂 ) .I know a guy from Shanghai and he doesn’t do whatever they do in Shanghai like letting the wife plays mahjong while he cooks and cleans. I don’t care if you’re a Shanghai man or a sexist. Just do the chores around the home so this home is functional again! If you say that you don’t clean ,cook or wash dishes because it’s sexist then you’re are really a very very lazy person ( man or woman). Chinese people usually say that you have a long back ( you are freaking lazy like hell). If I had a gf and she said “no I don’t do anything around the home”. I would say okay as long as you’re a millionaire. You have to know your status and bank account balance. They could hire a maid to do those things and We just couldn’t. You just can’t go by any blogs or books or articles out there and say that men or chinese/asian men should be this way or that way. Get back to reality and use common sense. A relatonship needs time to nurture. You need to survive thru hardship together in order to develop this unbreakable bond. I know a chinese man here that his wife died yrs ago and he wouldn’t go into another relationship with other women who are beautiful..He is truly still in love with his deceased wife. Sometimes, I do dishes and other times she does it.. so what? no big deal man.. You can’t pick a bf/gf/husband/wife by using your silly checklist. In the beginning, people in general will satisfy everything on your checklist but later they will tear it apart seriously!! The envirnoment we live in will change us. I was extremely calm and smooth over 15 yrs ago .But now I get pissed within seconds when it comes to something I don’t like or like to hear. If you argue over who will do the dishes and break up a wonderful relationship , you are an idiot. Some people need time to shine. Please keep on saying that chinese men /asian men don’t do this and that..You will sound stupid in front of people. I see some lazy ass American kids/men don’t do dishes or any other things. Just play football/basketball etc and get fat afterward. I’ve seen some chinese women who are soo damn lazy also. I swear to god oh mighty that it’s true. Do you know that I’m wasting time here too writing comments while I can do other productive chores? Some women make more than men and some men don’t mind staying home to be house dads. Time has changed, accept it.

  109. Anon
    Anon September 12, 2012 at 9:49 pm | | Reply

    True to a point. But what happens when the minorities that are being protected end up getting a better deal then some of the “unprotected” majorities simply based on some aspect that neither one has control over? That’s an entire discussion. And will go on forever. Anyway.

    I agree. Chinese women do not see it as sexist. It’s what they are taught to do. The system is set up for it. I would much rather have a women that wants a car and house but doesn’t complain about the same things that some Western women complain about. I only speaking from my personal experience here. I do realize that not everyone is the same. The grass is always greener right?

    I’ve also been scolded on dates for opening the door them. Some women actually find it offending that I open the door. Like I’m showing some kind of weakness they have by helping them. I mean really? Yeah, that’s just not for me. And man, don’t ever tell a girl that she’s beautiful. I’ve gotten a few girls like that. They get all dressed up and looking nice and then get all up in arms when guys stare and tell them they are beautiful.

    I’d rather not have a women that acts like a man. That’s seems to me where it’s heading. From my perspective a majority of women that I know have gone out of their way to show that they are equal to men. To me they always were equal, but they try their hardest to do everything a man would do and break the “mold” of what women were. It’s like their religion. They have to tell everyone about it.

    Yeah, whatever. I know personally I will treat my future significant other super awesome. And I personally like the way China is set up. Sure some men take advantage of it.. But is it really taking advantage of something that is used to doing a specific thing? That’s debatable.

    And how is never telling a girl that she is fat, or loving her for who and how she is not being sexist. She points that out like it’s something that sexist people don’t do.

    Listen. If I have to buy a house, a car, work everyday, then my unemployed wife can cook and clean. NOT because it’s what women do but because she doesn’t have a job. I think sometimes too women take advantage of this and use the sexist defense. I’ve had GFs that would be lazy as hell. But when you asked her to do something it’s was always, oh you want me to do that because I’m a women. No actually I want you to do at least something because your a lazy wench.

    Anyway. I get what the blog post is about, it has good intentions, but I do also think it gets taken advantage of by many women.

  110. askdsk
    askdsk September 12, 2012 at 10:30 pm | | Reply

    Not all women care about women issues. Not all minorities care about their own issues. So it depends on the individual.
    To your question what happens the policy is not fair to a certain group. No policy can be fair to everyone. It is a balance you will have to make. Same reason why half the country vote for one candidate, but end up accepting another for president. Why do you think some western men like Asian women? Grass is always greener on the other side, right? White girls complain about toilet seat while Asian girls complain about something else. Do you label those Asian ones sexist? It is also an attitude.
    I am not sure all Asian females like house chores while their husbands are working. Talk to Korean and Japanese wives. It is just a reality they live in and accept it as such. Western girls always have more choices. Marriage can be dissolved without family pressure. Jobs can be found to be independent. Something about how the system works. I know I don’t like the feeling I have to be responsible for another grown-up’ life. Your American girlfriends were brought up this way.

    Another interesting theory is that the female and male ratio plays a role. Male population decline post WII contributed to feminism in 1970’s. In most developed countries, females outnumber males. Look at Asian countries. Different story.

  111. Anon
    Anon September 12, 2012 at 11:07 pm | | Reply

    All very true.

    Thank you for the conversation.

  112. Cvaguy
    Cvaguy September 12, 2012 at 11:18 pm | | Reply

    Just want to point out the issue of toilet seat: If you are neat person, it would be always down with cover, even it is clean and no smell.

  113. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 7:51 am | | Reply

    Group that benefits most from affirmative action is white women. Thought I’d throw it out there for surprises.

  114. Mayte
    Mayte September 13, 2012 at 7:59 am | | Reply

    Well, I agree with some of the things that have been said. I think that there is a need for balance, to the hopeful end that there isn’t a need for special protections in any category. However, that’s not the reality and what goes on everyday so that people are “used to it” to a certain degree. Being used to something doesn’t make it right. Double standards aren’t right. So we attempt to strike balance, though sometimes the solutions seem to go on longer than the problem appears visible. That said, the problem still exists, but it’s better hidden in subtle behaviors rather than obvious ones. There is a need for change to address this also.

    As far as my own situation, I take care of myself, own my own property (not through divorce or other relationships, but through my own work and salary), I paid for my own education, and I work hard everyday. I expect that the man I am with does the same. When we are together, there is no such thing as women’s work and men’s work. I clean my home, can cook for an army, can change the alternator on my car, paint the house, and decorate it. If I ask my boyfriend for help, it’s not because it’s something I see as his work to do, but something I genuinely need help with. If he needs my help, there’s never hesitation unless I think I will cause more harm than good. I don’t think all women are under the idea that they need to prove anything. We do what we need to do because it needs doing. But to be doing the same amount of work (and sometimes more) and having someone tell you (with an attitude) that you need to do something because it’s (wo)man’s work, is not something anyone wants to hear. I don’t tell my boyfriend to do anything because it’s a man’s job, while I watch tv and have a beer. Why piss him off? There’s no need for that.

    I think this blog is not meant to be a feminist blog at all. Jocelyn is a strong woman, to be sure, but I don’t think she’s a feminist in a strong sense of the word. She’s simply pointing out that this guy was being a bit of a pill and she didn’t like it. She’s allowed to have an opinion, especially being as this is her blog.

  115. Anon
    Anon September 13, 2012 at 8:07 am | | Reply

    Very true. I wasn’t out to disrespect anyone. And I’ve been reading the blog for a while. I’m not out to say that she is a feminist.

    I just wanted to state some observations that I have seen.

    For giggles I googled who benefits most from affirmative action, and guess what popped up.. White women..

    Oh noes.. haha.

  116. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 8:34 am | | Reply

    Some comments made in the past are just offensive and not true. But there is a point made. White privilege exists. In a interracial relationship, can white female ask the other party the same thing sometimes? Recognizing cultural difference is also important. I bet Jocelyn’s husband sometimes wonder why she does not do certain things the way his mother did. His mom ever complains about his dad the same way? We won’t judge Jocelyn, but what she meant within the context.

  117. Mayte
    Mayte September 13, 2012 at 8:50 am | | Reply

    I think there is a case for that. I don’t her comments meet that definition with regard to her ex. She didn’t single him out to do the dishes because he was Chinese. I’m sure John has his own set of questions about her, and she about him, but it’s part of learning about each other, and especially so within an intercultural/interracial relationship. With my own experience, it’s been similar. His parents make assumptions that I will behave like “all laowai” behave. Then they question why I don’t behave like the other laowai…. You can’t win, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to stop trying.

    And for the record, all women complain, even the Chinese women here in the mainland. They just do so with discretion. They’re human, of course they have feelings and opinions, but you still protect the one you love.

  118. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 9:17 am | | Reply

    Yes all women complain. But the Chinese ones don’t complain about the same things usually. More often, Chinese women will give up for the family to keep it together. You can call it unfair. But something has to be said about that sacrifice.
    There is also a case why not all western women support feminist causes. At the end of the day, these relationships don’t always work not because we can’t understand each other. You just choose not to live with each other.
    Why do you think Asian women so popular on the marriage market? 🙂

  119. Mayte
    Mayte September 13, 2012 at 9:34 am | | Reply

    I hear the same complaints when I have spoken with Chinese women. I imagine they would avoid complaining the same way with men. I don’t call it unfair. They do what they will do as they see fit. I respect the sacrifices anyone makes for family.

    I think relationships end for lots of reasons. I see a lot of devaluing of the institution of marriage in general in the US, so it makes it very easy to “choose not to live with each other” anymore. It happens with Western, as well as Eastern couples there. In China, the thinking is still different. As far as Asian women being popular, I think women are just popular in general. Asian women are popular for many reasons, it’s not simple except for the logic that each man sets to it when he happens to choose his bride. You can no longer say, they’re chosen because they’re submissive, because they do housework, etc. With that logic, where would we be on this blog? Feminist women seeking men who want them to be subservient? 😉 This blog would then have been shut down by the hardcore feminists a long time ago.

  120. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 9:50 am | | Reply

    Now everything is on the table.
    I don’t agree many men are seeking women to be submissive. But it needs to be compatible to avoid small conflicts. That is at least a Chinese logic (and not alone). Any woman who stands up for herself can be a feminist. I can’t think a word equivalent for male. Enough said about that.

  121. Bruce
    Bruce September 13, 2012 at 12:12 pm | | Reply

    I love it. I want to hear some more :). This is not a business deal. When your relationship doesn’t work out , write to me and tell me why. Apply what you say here, you will fail.

  122. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 1:41 pm | | Reply

    If someone becomes your family, you will join the fight for equality regarding gender or race – one reason people don’t say why white women don’t marry Chinese. Think about it. If they do, they have to confront stereotypes and racism. Another reason to stay within your own people. I met Asian guys would tell you only their own women understand their struggle at the end of the day. The only problem is that their own women ditch them too. I think Jocelyn comes to that understanding.

  123. Bruce
    Bruce September 13, 2012 at 7:05 pm | | Reply

    I know a couple that divides house expenses and count pennies on every bill. This kind of relationship I don’t like or want. What if you get sick and you can’t pay portion of your share? Let’s split up? There are lots of marriage business deal out there.

  124. Anon
    Anon September 13, 2012 at 8:02 pm | | Reply

    Yeah Bruce, but on the other side. I’ve seen girls whine like little babies that they want the newest iPhone or gadget. And they expect the man to buy it. I think splitting is good and bad. It depends on the couple. I think it makes two people trust less, but then you can get burned fast if one person handles the money.. 6 of this half dozen of the other.. you know..

    I’m going to get flamed for this, but I am looking for a more submissive women. I didn’t say that I want to use her, make her a slave, take advantage of her. I just don’t want a women that acts like a man and in my eyes most American women from my past were like that. Doesn’t mean they all are. The women I see in Shanghai here are more “feminine,” sexy, they may be strong and may be even more powerful than some men but they sill act like what I would like my significant other to act like. They have my respect, they are equal in my eyes. There is no dispute there.

    They wear skirts, nice clothes, high heels, etc. They embrace it. I totally love it. To me they are women. I can’t remember the last time I saw a girl in my home town or the big town near my hometown wear a skirt. Even going out. Here everyday I see hundreds of women that dress way nicer than where I previously lived in the States. But I haven’t lived in New York or LA. So.. It’s not comparing apples to apples.

    When I go back home to the States I’ll hear women say things like I don’t wear high heels because why do I have to because it’s sexist. I did actually hear that. You’ll see tons of girls that look like they let themselves go. Etc.

    But come to Shanghai and even China for that matter. I get the impression that when a women dresses up she wants to be looked at. So when you look at her it makes her feel good. Of course there is a creepy like but it’s far more out there then the States. God forbid you stare at a sexy women in the State. Admire her. You’ll get slapped.

    I also kind of like the fact that a body is just a body here. Some times it’s not good to think like that. But it’s also not good to think of it as some religious temple that never gets used. I won’t start a sex discussion but I will say that it is another reason why I wouldn’t marry an American women given the choice.

    Of course I’m speaking in generalities because really that’s all you can do in life. No one person knows the absolute answer to these questions.

    But yeah, you know. Life is life. We all want different things. Just the way it is.

  125. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 8:33 pm | | Reply

    You will be flamed because you tell the secrets inside many men’s head. And women know that too.
    I think American women build their own prison too. They are brought up with the idea to fight for their rights and lead the changes. Those are very American values. Look at some other countries where women enjoy more freedom, but still act like nice women.

  126. Anon
    Anon September 13, 2012 at 8:52 pm | | Reply

    Exactly.

    I personally like the divide in China. Women tend to be the masters of the house. Perhaps I buy it. But she will take care of it. It’s the wat the system is. That’s how it works best. Apartments here require tending to all the time. And Chinese women or their mother know how to do it.

    On the flip side I know my role. I work may ass to buy the house and car. I make the money. She buys the food.

    Of course it’s not that cut and dried. But for the majority of the time it is. Everyone is happy. Just like my grandparents. That’s how it was. That’s the way I like it.

    In America not any more. I don’t want to complain but it’s obvious. just visit a male forum or get some male friends to really open up. Most will probably think along these lines.

    But saying that I’d rather have a baby girl. Because looking down the road, I hate to say it but it’s the fall of the male as we know it. And we can’t do anything about it. Because we’d be sexist. .. bummer. And it’s also our own doing sitting around playing video games.. So there’s that.. haha.

  127. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 9:11 pm | | Reply

    I am not against feminism. Too much individualism bothers me.
    I also like Asian culture’s value for family stability. All long term relationships have difficulties. I question people’s happiness in multiple marriages. Unless you are seriously abused or really cheated by your partner, people need to stick together. I can’t think of a child from a divorce family does not wish their parents can be together. Also, those children themselves tend to get divorced later in life.
    As long as someone share similar values, I don’t care what people call me.

  128. Anon
    Anon September 13, 2012 at 9:28 pm | | Reply

    I agree.
    I’ve heard, seen and been a part of relationships that end because of stupid things. But that’s what happens when people have choices. And since I can imagine that men have always had a choice, that it’s because women now have choices. But that is a good thing. But it sucks when girls break up, or can’t over look the fact that you have body hair, or don’t like dogs, or some other little thing. I’m all for choices. But when you go out with someone for years and they then want a dog. You don’t, are allergic, and since she doesn’t need you, she dumps you and gets a dog. There are also events in which the male can dump the female. Sure. But women have the choice these days. I feel they use it too often. They can’ earn enough money to provide for their well being, so they really don’t need guys. Which makes us feel bad. I feel like nothing. I’m not needed. I want a women to need me. Asian women make me feel like that. So here I am. Not to mention the fact that I’ve known women that jump from male to male about every 2 yrs. Oh we’ve been together for years, but I want to go find myself in a different country. I’m being selfish and am leaving you. Then she splits.

    One of the problems is that American parents have be teaching their children to be more and more independent. Oh hunny you don’t need a man. etc. I’ve heard it. The girl then grows up with a big chip on theirs shoulder and wonders why at 35 she can’t find the perfect male suitor..

    An Atlantic article comes to mind. Titled: All the single women.

    Sure she isn’t everyone women, but when a guys reads it most will agree that it’s what the dating scene is like. For those few hottie guys that can get the women it’s like a dream. Like a white male in Asia, but for the rest of us. It’s hell. I can be the smartest guy that anyone knows. Super nice, too nice, etc. Which I am. But I get passed because girls want the bad boy. And a guy that’s over 6ft tall. not all but I’ve been passed up plenty of times to know how the game works. Then these women gt played and wonder what happened. They then realize that they wanted to marry a guy like me.. But I’m already off to Asia.

    More often then not. But not all the time..

  129. askdsk
    askdsk September 13, 2012 at 9:48 pm | | Reply

    Southern girls (red states) in US have more traditional values. A lot of changes are coming out of industrialization and modern economy. You see similar changes in Asia to certain degree.
    Conservatives have voices that make sense. You need both views in a society.
    About the dating scene, Asian guys just need to be realistic. Once you figure out the dynamics, you will know what makes you happy.

  130. askdsk
    askdsk September 14, 2012 at 11:36 am | | Reply

    I read the Atlantic article – http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/308654/5/.
    It is a great piece. If her wishes come true to have society to embrace idea of alternative family arrangement, majority of women won’t prosper. Author like herself has privileges most women don’t have. There is certain truth that women’s rise turn some men to boys – prolonged adultlescence. But she did not see the education and status attainments gained by women occur in much lesser extent. You only need to look at sectors where women are on job market to figure that out. In a recession, women fare better than men because their job areas – a lot in public sectors. What happens when men decide to enter those areas? What happens when those areas are cut?
    It is everyone’s loss. If women believe men are truly threatened by their status gain, that is also over statement. A crucial factor to include women in the economy is because their labor is needed. In Asia, there is always a surplus of male labor already before the sex selection.

    The last example is from Netherlands, a country embrace liberal views like no other places. Those countries set up social institutions quite differently from US. Most dutch are atheist to my knowledge. How much people need to change to get there?

    When will women admit they like sex as much as men? If all men want is to sleep around? Women do that in much quieter ways. To me that is an disappointment for an author written in such a liberal way. The most honest opinion I heard is admission that women still want more attachment at the end of the sex.

    What she described happens in modern China as well. Highly educated and successful women are often alone or divorced. Much of the plight is the same. But she can adopt alternative lifestyle and write to challenge the social norms. Maybe I am just a narrow-minded Chinese. But marriage takes commitment and sacrifice more than a career. People who do not honor that tradition is essentially more selfish.

  131. Bruce
    Bruce September 14, 2012 at 2:41 pm | | Reply

    You know you really have to know your gf/bf before you get married. Don’t get mesmerized by her/his beauty!! Test the water first.. Put her/him in a worse case scenerio situation see if you can get along. I don’t just talk here ! I’ve been through alot of situations in the past so I’m telling you now. People age after a few yrs. Beauty will not last! The personality/attitude will last!!! Like they say.. the rest is history. You want someone who is easygoing and willing to work every issues with you. Washing dishes is just a silly issue to throw you off the main importance of a truly wonderful relationship.

  132. april
    april September 14, 2012 at 5:57 pm | | Reply

    As an American girl I have to point out that it is an individual thing. Personally, if I lived whenever the whole women’s sufferage was going on I would tell these women they’re nuts. Not all of us want to be men. Not all of us want to be “equal”.
    I want to be a mom, I want to take care of my son and cook dinner.
    I don’t think washing the dishes is a woman’s work. As I said earlier, I’ve always had boyfriends that do the dishes and take out the trash because I cook the food and do everything else.
    Let’s face it, men are still pigs and if you don’t clean up after most of them, nothing will ever be clean. Men are still raised to be men, but I feel like women are too and in that respect, that explains why women are just as bad as men and need someone to pick up after them these days.
    I was raised by a single mom and a single dad so I know how to be both mom and dad if the need arised. I can cook, clean, and work.
    I prefer having a woman’s role because I believe men should be men and women should be women.
    I would think that in order to have an intercultural relationship with someone that comes from more of a traditional background, you would have to have some understand for traditional roles.
    I think things in China have modernised just the right amount, where women can work and be independent, but once you get married, most women become wives and mothers above all else. They can work, and some do, but it would not be looked down upon if they kept their tradiitonal role of “wife” as it does here.
    If you’re a Stay At Home Mom in America you get no respect for the oldest woman’s job in history, people will secretly call you lazy behind your back because it’s expected for a woman to be the man now.

    Sorry boys, I don’t need an extra vagina, I need a husband.

  133. askdsk
    askdsk September 14, 2012 at 8:34 pm | | Reply

    Probably the cultural expectations are different. Doing dishes is just a minor detail.
    Although Jocelyn’s former boyfriend had been harsh, I could guess it might be tolerated by some other female because he did other things in return. But a normal American girl won’t put up with that s*. I can understand and support all the causes for equality, but think some of these courtesies for women are superficial. When some girl tells me she will give up something substantial for me, that is when you return with more than she bargains for. You can call that traditional. I can tell you that is how my parents work. Nothing is demanded, yet everything cared for. A long marriage and mostly happy one. I don’t think some American families don’t function the same way. But it seem to become rare. For some reason, that becomes price to pay for this and that… People want more and more this and that…

  134. Cvaguy
    Cvaguy September 14, 2012 at 8:36 pm | | Reply

    Let us facing it: man and woman will never be literally equal 🙂
    There is always a division of labor which is up to negotiation between the two people. The issue here is the attitude of not bother to do certain house chore. What if both of you don’t like to do dishes? Making turn the relationship will last, otherwise it will certainly end. Take your pick.
    The tradition classification of woman’s works have charged with more weman enter workforce. The society expectation has changed as well. Therefore, we all have to adjust accordingly and draw your line wisely.
    To illustrate this, there are women who do yard work, paint house, and fix car. There are men who take care kids, cleaning and cook. Nothing odd about these. Although it is not a norm, it is certainly not outlier.

  135. askdsk
    askdsk September 14, 2012 at 9:28 pm | | Reply

    @ April
    I had some same questions as Anon. We complained bitterly about it.

    If you have to give up more than your share of the upbringing in these type of relationship, is it worth it? Doing it out of novelty is certainly not the way to go. Both partners need to make the efforts. Can these relationships be more equal besides gender differences? I know it depends on individual. But some larger themes always come up. We are men and suppose to have solutions, right?

  136. Anon
    Anon September 14, 2012 at 11:49 pm | | Reply

    Yep, more people want more more more. I rarely meet people that are like me that give. It’s rare. I’m also not tooting my own horn here. I’m just stating what I’ve seen.

    This is a little off topic, but when I receive an email, text or any type of communication I respond right away unless there is something that doesn’t allow me to. Which is rare. But EVERYONE, even people I thought were close friends RARELY respond. It’s like, send me a text, I reply, and then nothing. It happens most of the time. And I hate it. The only person that does respond right away is my family for the most part, and my best friend of 20yrs. That’s it.

    So I am looking for someone who wants to give me time. It seems more and more that time is a gift to be given. I would also like for her to enjoy receiving my time. I have met very few who think like this. But it’s one of the thing I look for.

    What I was trying to say is that now days it me me me. Give me, give me, what about me. That’s the impression that I get from of the youth of today. And maybe most under 30. But again I don’t know everyone. It’s just a feeling. Anyway, yeah, I feel like it’s bargaining and again not to bring countries into this, I would rather bargain with a house and a car than house chores and dishes.

    I like sex. Let’s face it, it’s nice. We’ll all adults here. But in most all the relationships I was in during my time in the States, it always turned into a hassle. I got a headache, blah blah blah. Sure, there ARE time when you would rather not get intimate. I understand. But again it happened enough that it was a game. Lot’s of times you get all smoochy with the miss’ and she stops it and say something like, did you take the trash out.. I got turned down so many time with dates, girl friends, even the girl I thought I was going to marry.

    I hate that crap. And I swear I will drop a women who does that faster than she can say why. I will not bargain for having sex and being close. Watch western TV, it’s all over the place. TV shows play on this, it’s in comedy, its “American” culture. But where I live now, it’s never been a question with anyone that I know or I have personally dated. NEVER. It something you do to be close. Not use to get the trash taken out. But there is not effect without cause. So perhaps the majority of men are changing women to use this as leverage. And I’m just along for the ride.

    Anyway.. just some more thoughts. Take them for what their worth. Find someone that makes you happy because in the end really, nothing matters. Not even this conversation does. It’s just something to pass the time in between..

  137. askdsk
    askdsk September 15, 2012 at 8:33 am | | Reply

    A lot said. I will follow up and hope some other people can share their views.
    As far as sex goes, Asian women do tend to be compliant more than American counterparts. It was once the same in US until sex revolution came along. The old idea was that no proper women would turn down their husbands for sex. It was their duty to satisfy the men. Now men need to give women pleasure. Let women come first and do more foreplay. Basically work harder at it. I think some women do use that thinking to test the water. A lot of Asian girls’ logic is still the old way. You work hard for the family and treat me well. I will give you sex even if I don’t want to. By the way, some of them are also really good at sex and talk about it. Asian culture traditionally emphasize physical modesty. So women are more careful.

    Let’s talk about bi-racial children. People often think they are smart and cuter. Not all true. My practical mind can tell me if I marry an Asian girl, I still have more chances to have an Asian child. Sure they might not speak the language anymore. But eventually they will carry the identity. Bi-racial children have to choose which way they go with. What if they can’t benefit from the best of both cultures? If he or she is all Asian, I have better chance to send him/her to ivy league. Your children might suffer more prejudices. But bi-racial children would not be treat as white by society either. This blog has been overly positive about many things. I would like to see them irrelevant, but that would be lying.

  138. Anon
    Anon September 15, 2012 at 8:59 am | | Reply

    Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Given the choice men would like to have an American women from the pre-50/60s era. Which is, for the most part what some Asian women still think like. Women want men from now and the future where they are equal or control men.

    Seems pretty much like human nature to me. Everyone wants more for themselves. But these big changes take decades. No one wants to just be equal. If that was the case we’d all be socialists or something like that.

    As far as mixed kids. I think it depends on how they are raised. Chinasmack as some interesting cross culture people share their stories.

    In middle America it might be a problem to be an Asian/White mix. But big cities it’s fine. When it comes down to it they may not fit into one group completely. But yet there are more doors open to them. I think a big thing is that they speak BOTH languages. If not if they come to China, or whatever country that’s not white they could be ostracized. Much like the stores I see about Chinese growing up in LA and then moving here not speaking Chinese. They also might be paid crap. But if they have a good education and speak both English and Chinese they could very well rise to the top because they fit in and understand both cultures. Where I stand out like a sore thumb.

    Depends on the approach you take. But I don’t think anyone can argue that racism is gone. There will always be people that hate other people. Much like China is behaving with Japan.

    So really does it matter. Probably not. Someone will always find something to hate some one for. If it’s not because the color of someone’s skin it’d be because of wealth, or intellect, or something.

    So just live life and not give a Sh*T about what others think. It’s what I do.

  139. Bruce
    Bruce September 15, 2012 at 9:22 am | | Reply

    I didn’t know that my comments could attract so much feedback like spreading WILDFIRE !! Doing more in a relationship won’t get you killed. When you give 200% on something, nothing matters. Sometimes, we are just afraid to do more or we just calculate too much whether there is actual benefit for doing so much.Women are very smart and they do compare with others ;however, they know if a man is worth the time or not. If my wife says ” honey, help clean the dishes”, I will do it. I do it not because it’s a women’s job but to EASE OFF some work load that she’s having. If the wife is happy, the whole house/ family is happy. I don’t care how pretty is a woman but if you don’t have the basic foundation of maintaining a relationship/family, I don’t want her. Showing off a beautiful woman in public or to friends and families, won’t make you any happier! Being good looking is one thing but using beauty to control the relationship is unhealthy. You must know how to cheer your woman up. Don’t be like a useless log. The ULTIMATE level of a relationship is being happy. You can have $1 billion and you’re not happy. I love to stimulate people’s minds. The ones that understand me will thank me. You know having a person who is always moody or anger in a home is unstabled. It’s very difficult to live with someone like that. Nobody can live like this. I rest my case!

    Sincerely,

    Bruce

  140. askdsk
    askdsk September 15, 2012 at 10:01 am | | Reply

    She says it right – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bqMY82xzWo
    Thanks Anon. I run out of things to say.

  141. Bruce
    Bruce September 16, 2012 at 10:15 am | | Reply

    In a relationship, a man can’t be too bossy or talk like commanding woman like slave to do something. Laughing and talking loudly in healthy, happy conversation is recommended but just commanding in a bossy way will push her away. Everyday is different in a relationship and the envirnoment ( living condition) is also different . Last night, I cooked and washed most of the dishes. I had to make my yard emaculately attractive. We had friends over and we had a blast. I cleaned up afterward and some other guys helped also. We just like what we do and we are responsible people in general. Women are very unique and they are very sensitive. Little things can be BIG things to them. You always have to be thoughtful and think carefully what you about to say. Everything is unpredictable so you just have to be ready to work things out. Every couple / person is different so you can’t use other relationship example and try to make it work for you. No no no, you just can’t do that. For example, if a woman is verbally expressive , you can’t match her with a quiet guy. I can’t even predict what I say if my wife catch me at the wrong time.

  142. askdsk
    askdsk September 16, 2012 at 10:52 am | | Reply

    I don’t want to judge other people not kindly. But I did not spend early years in US. I found it served better purposes. I did not suffer the minority mentality- a victim mentality developed in many I encountered. Plenty of Asian guys worship white girls. They are hotter by percentage in my opinion. Personalities, outlooks in life and physical features are all different from Asians. When it comes to long term relationships, I am not going to put up with some of the quirks. Understanding is important to set you on a equal footing. But I am not going to get lost.

  143. Anon
    Anon September 16, 2012 at 7:06 pm | | Reply

    Bruce, I agree. However I don’t want to walk on eggshells my entire life.

    It all comes down to someone that fits your own personality. That’s all.

  144. askdsk
    askdsk September 16, 2012 at 8:05 pm | | Reply

    My last comment is that I won’t want to be the second choice. When you are out there and not appreciated for stupid reasons, something has to change. I have plenty of energies and qualities to go elsewhere.
    I wish everyone who wishes to date the other race the best luck because all happy couples are essentially the same.

  145. Soleil
    Soleil July 7, 2014 at 11:28 pm | | Reply

    When we were travelling together guys and girls it was usually the females standing in the kitchen doing the dishes while males played video games

  146. Lanyu
    Lanyu August 20, 2015 at 4:14 pm | | Reply

    “You cook I wash” So this my current boyfriend told me first days of our dating 😀 and I’m still loving him for that short sentence. I didn’t find there any sexism, because I love cooking and I love cooking for someone else even more. Moreover, who would want to destroy perfectly made manicure, right? 😀
    haha, I wish it’s that easy…
    but anyway, feel happy for what you have, because sometimes it’s the best what you can get in your life and any other tries are just not so perfect…

  147. jean
    jean August 9, 2016 at 12:48 pm | | Reply

    To be fair, Chinese men are WAY better than Japanese men, let me tell you.
    Im from the UK and have been living and working in japan for 8 years. Even from the workplace, to your own private relationships, women are just sidelined. My Japanese ex would never cook or clean for me, and expected me to do things in a certain way (or like his mother did).
    Since then I have dated two Chinese guys. They are AMAZING. One of them cooked for me randomly when I wasn’t well, washed up and then bandaged my broken finger (long story, had injury). I felt that a lot of the Chinese guys I know are incredibly practical and self-sufficient and are not at all incapable of doing things by themselves.
    Compared to Japanese and Korean guys, Chinese guys are way, way more attentive. I imagine cos Chinese women are pretty bad ass and don’t take crap tbh.

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