Guest Post: My Relationship Ideals Were a Smorgasbord of Western & Eastern Values, All Torn Down by Him | Speaking of China

23 Responses

  1. Constance - Foreign Sanctuary
    Constance - Foreign Sanctuary August 28, 2015 at 12:58 pm | | Reply

    I think you are better off without the guy. Next time, stick to your morals and if someone can’t accept that, then they are not worth your time in the first place.

  2. marghini
    marghini August 28, 2015 at 4:09 pm | | Reply

    Wow he really sounds like someone you will be better off without!

    While I am sure certain cultural differences played a role in the breakup, I think ultimately he was just not a great partner overall.

    In Italian we say: “meglio soli che mal accompagnati”. It roughly translates to: it’s better to be alone than with the wrong person.

  3. R Zhao
    R Zhao August 28, 2015 at 10:58 pm | | Reply

    In response to the earlier comments, aren’t you being a little hard on the guy? I didn’t get the overall impression that he expected her to abandon her principles, just that they had different moral values and she compromised hers in the heat of the moment. I have witnessed this a lot with my friends who have dated cross-culturally and have experienced it myself at times. I don’t think it’s necessarily anyone’s fault. But if you find yourself not liking who you are or what you do when you are in a relationship with someone (romantic or otherwise), perhaps it’s time to bow out.

  4. Mark
    Mark August 29, 2015 at 1:26 am | | Reply

    Regarding US or Canada most men will expect you to sleep with you on your second or third date unless he is an evangelical…but then again with the way these evangelicals (mostly whites) seem to be supporting a thrice divorced philanderer named Donald Trump, I am not very sure that most evangelicals live by their principles of sex after marriage…after all you are a reflection of who you support and who you want to represent you!

  5. Fred
    Fred August 29, 2015 at 5:29 am | | Reply

    Perhaps you lost him because you supplicated too easily by being too eager. Also having sex with him on the second date was not a good idea. You should have made him work for it and not have capitulated so soon. Perhaps he did not respect you because of these reasons.

  6. Rdm
    Rdm August 29, 2015 at 7:14 am | | Reply

    I’m going to be blunt here. I’m sure you won’t like it either.

    – 2nd date and already slept together. (Asian or Western value?)
    – After 5 days, meeting with his parents. (Asian or Western value?)

    Neither of these reflects Asian or Western values, in my belief. Both of these reflects (100% blunt) a type of girl that just wants to release her dating stress from the previous.

    A guy letting his parents meeting a girlfriend whom he just knew for 5 days? This is not Asian or Western value. Now let’s turn our heads and imagine Kyle as an Asian guy. Let’s call him “Kyle Ming”. After 5 days meeting from Tinder, he asked you to meet his parents. What’s gonna turn out after that? I’m sure you’ll be labeling Kyle as a desperate Asian guy ringing a wedding bell.

    As a guy, I’d say “Sex is the most powerful weapon a woman can have.” No matter how much you think you’re stupidly in love, giving in after 2nd date is not gonna turn out pretty well unless you are 60 years old lady. And this is not western value either.

    Western value, slightly different from Asian value in my belief, is “Be open about your feeling and be vocal.” NOT “Sleeping after 2nd date”.

    Sleeping after 1st or 2nd date = desperate.

    I don’t know why people are confused with these things.

  7. Autumn
    Autumn August 30, 2015 at 3:36 am | | Reply

    The post was interesting. Some of the comments, though, are pretty damned irritating.

    She “lost him because she slept with him on the second date?!”

    She “was too eager?”

    Sleeping with someone on the first date is “desperate?”

    Are you guys living in Victorian times? Because these comments sound like 1) Some serious shaming, and 2) Some serious double standards. If Jocelyn — or ANYONE — wants to take a guy/ girl for a sexual test drive, then kudos to the driver if she uses protection and they are both consenting adults. There’s something to be said for finding out early if there’s chemistry or decent sex!

    If they are consenting adults and maybe they just want to have sex on date number one (or date number 200) and see where it goes, then who cares? What’s with all the judgment?

    Jocelyn found out that jumping in quickly didn’t work for her sexually or romantically. Certainly it seems like Kyle had different expectations. Jocelyn tried to meet those expectations and she realized that they didn’t work for her. Good job, Jocelyn.

    Relationships are sometimes like clothes. We try them on, wear them for a while, and learn that some look great and feel terrible. And we discard them.

    And as for cloaking this sort of sexist crap behind Eastern/ Western/ Asian values, check yourselves. HARD. If a guy named “Joe” had posted this same piece, would you call him eager or desperate? Or would it be a round of cyber high-fives? Or just “boys will be rogues, but women have to stay chaste till marriage?” Victorian ridiculousness.

    Come with me to the twenty-first century, my friends. We have vaccines, the International Space Station, condoms, and premarital sex. It’s nice here.

    1. Betty has a Panda
      Betty has a Panda September 2, 2015 at 6:19 am | | Reply

      Autumn, you perfectly summed it up. Thank you!

  8. Rdm
    Rdm August 30, 2015 at 6:29 am | | Reply

    Sometimes I’m surprised by the level of readership here. No wonder Jocelyn (John’s wife), not (Kyle’s sexual adventure) tries to encourage constructive discussion here.

    If you want a short answer,
    –> change the post title to “Two night stands and heart broken.” I’m ok with that.

    If you want a long answer,
    No one is saying that the author should suppress her sexual desire to enjoy herself. Everyone including myself seems to get an idea that she fell hard “Stupidly in love” with someone from Tinder. What does that tell you? Victorian age? 21st century? Give me a break. If you want sex, go for it. No one is discouraging you from. But don’t come up and extol the two night stands like an epic love story between Asian and Western culture. That’s what I specifically wrote in my comment.

    If a guy goes to a bar, pick up a sexy girl, sleep on 1st date, and heart broken, and wrote something like Epic story between Western and Asian culture, then I’d expect you come here and encourage him to frequent a bar and have sex as many as possible because it’s 21st century after all.

    Read the story thoroughly, interpret what the author wants to convey, if the author is making a brothel visit like “An extraordinary expedition you can ever imagine”, then I’ll be damned in this 21st century and will rather look forward to reading “Gone with the wind” or “Pride and Prejudice”, instead of this chick flick.

    “Stupidly in love”, love that expression.

    1. Autumn
      Autumn August 30, 2015 at 11:31 pm | | Reply

      You originally wrote: “As a guy, I’d say ‘Sex is the most powerful weapon a woman can have.’ No matter how much you think you’re stupidly in love, giving in after 2nd date is not gonna turn out pretty well.”

      I interpret that as 1) A women’s power in a relationship is predominantly sexual, 2) Having sex on the second date is bad.

      Now you’ve described the author of the post as “Kyle’s sexual adventure.” Why couldn’t you just say “Jocelyn Wong” or “the author of this post?” Why is she constantly being reduced to sexual terms? Maybe you’re trying to be witty. Or clever. I find you neither.

      I find this objectification insulting and judgmental.

      If you would like to clarify your statements, please feel free.

      I can see by your subsequent post that you appear to feel upset that the story did not live up to the title, which is a perfectly valid, defensible, and reasonable complaint/ comment. (Though perhaps a little naive in the cyber world of click bait.)

      However, your original post appeared to me to target and disparage Jocelyn’s sexual choices rather than the structure of her story and the choice of title. When I see a double standard like that AND the unthinking sense of entitled male judgment, I point it out. Because if I don’t challenge it, how can I expect it to change?

  9. Jocelyn Wong
    Jocelyn Wong August 30, 2015 at 11:26 pm | | Reply

    When I wrote this post, I really didn’t expect there to be such a strong reaction to it. Rdm, I’m sorry you took this so personally but this is my personal experience, and I certainly did not wrap it up in an Eastern/Western bow just to make things neat.

    Relationships are messy things and I’m not saying that these values ruined our relationship but they were just hurdles that I personally faced when I dated Kyle. I’m not blowing it up to be some epic, but I’m merely telling the truth of what I felt at the time: yes, I did fall “stupidly in love” and did some pretty stupid things, but certainly that doesn’t justify me being your (I’m using “your” as a reference to the general public) pincushion.

    “No sex before monogamy” is something I was raised on – whether it be TV shows, movies or conversation with relatives – and a rule that I broke on our second date. I don’t think it makes me “desperate” – as Autumn said, we are both consenting adults. I didn’t have sex with him to keep him interested, I did it because I wanted to at the time. I thought that there was something there and in time, I found the emotional and physical connection to be lacking. This is nobody’s fault. It just meant that things weren’t right for us.

    I think that meeting a significant other’s parents is a big step in a relationship and one that most Eastern women won’t take early on. I met most of my Western boyfriends’ parents within six months of dating them – which I believe, is too early. I think that I definitely compromised my values here – don’t get me wrong, his parents are fantastic people – but again, doesn’t mean I’m desperate. I was still “feeling out” our relationship and wanted to give things a proper shot. This certainly does not make me a villain.

    Now for the whopper: “friends-with-benefits” is something that most Eastern women (I know) would be very ashamed of. I’m not saying everyone is the same. But from my circle of friends in Hong Kong, it would appear that sex is a taboo subject and sleeping around with people (or at least someone you’re not dating) is frowned upon. I’m saying that I was personally offended and disgusted by his proposition based on the fact that he knew my values and STILL tried to coax me into it.

    I hope this clears up some of the questions you had.

    1. Autumn
      Autumn August 30, 2015 at 11:49 pm | | Reply

      Hi, Jocelyn, glad you came back to comment. This statement of yours resonated with me: “I was personally offended and disgusted by his proposition based on the fact that he knew my values and STILL tried to coax me into it.”

      I feel that this is part of a larger societal issue. It’s the acceptance of the idea that guys are EXPECTED to pressure women for sex and “good girls” are expected to wait until the 5th date or marriage, or whatever. The agreement that “boys will be boys” rather than behaving themselves and being respectful is the first step on the staircase that leads to “she was asking for it in the short skirt” and “if she didn’t want to have sex, why did she get drunk?”

      I hate the idea that it’s expected that men will hound and harass women for sex almost as much as I hate the idea that women must be chaste and responsible for male behavior.

      1. Fred
        Fred September 4, 2015 at 6:09 am | | Reply

        @ Autumn.

        I agree that in society we have a double standard: if a man sleeps with a woman or multiple women before marriage and obtains sex quickly from her, he is called a “stud” and is praised for his sexual successes; if a woman sleeps with a man or multiple men before marriage, she is condemned as a “slut.” This is a very unfortunate double standard and I am in agreement with you that whatever happens between 2 consenting adults whether they sleep with each other on the 1st, 2nd or nth date, it is their business and no one should question or shame them.

        But Jocelyn Wong was wondering what went awry in her relationship with him, and I was merely trying to hypothesize as to why it went awry. I was not attempting to shame her or criticize her. Therefore, I concluded that he did not respect her because she slept with him on the 2nd date. Her ex-boyfriend was probably disrespecting her because of her early capitulation. But if Ms. Wong is not worried about how many men she chooses to sleep with and how many dates it takes before sleeping with him, then I send my high praises to her and wish her well. There is no shame or dishonor arising out of a woman sleeping with man at any time.

        I wish Miss Wong all the best and go ahead and sleep with as many men as you wish and have a lot of fun doing so.

  10. Rdm
    Rdm August 31, 2015 at 9:07 am | | Reply

    “I interpret that as 1) A women’s power in a relationship is predominantly sexual, 2) Having sex on the second date is bad.”

    You’re slightly correct in interpreting the 2nd point. If you’re looking for a hookup, or just FWB or one night stand, you can do whatever you want with your sex drive. But in a *relationship*, if you’re expecting for a long-term, giving in “sex” after 1st or 2nd date is not something you should hope for. But if you’re keen on pointing out it’s “double-standard”, remember I say, it’s for long-term relationship. I said if you want sex, go for it. But don’t make it like giving up between Asian and Western values.

    “Come with me to the twenty-first century, my friends. We have vaccines, the International Space Station, condoms, and premarital sex. It’s nice here.”

    You try to be witty here too? When it comes to *relationship*, ISS is nothing to do with. No one dates in this 21st century because of ISS.

    “And as for cloaking this sort of sexist crap behind Eastern/ Western/ Asian values”

    Are you talking to me or directing to Jocelyn Wong? I’m confused. I’m not the one talking about lowering my guard down on 2nd date and have sex (supposedly Asian value because no sex before marriage). I’m the one who pointed out that this is not even Western values either. There’s no Asian or Western values in this scenario. The idea is you had the moment, and you thought you seized it. There’s no Asian or Western values. So I’m cloaking this sort of sexist crap behind XXX values? Now let’s pause here for a while. I’ll give you three dots . . .

    Ok, WHO is cloaking this sexist crap behind XXX values here?

    I said giving in sex after 2nd date is bad. This is neither Asian nor Western values. Jocelyn Wong thought giving in sex after 2nd date is what she supposed “Against her core Asian value “No sex before marriage”. Tell me who is cloaking who?

    Jesus Christ, next time read the article THOROUGHLY,

    “If a guy named “Joe” had posted this same piece, would you call him eager or desperate? Or would it be a round of cyber high-fives? Or just “boys will be rogues, but women have to stay chaste till marriage?” Victorian ridiculousness.”

    I hate to say this, men and women think differently when it comes to dating. If you’re looking for someone seriously, Tinder is something you should avoid. But if you’re dead on finding out from Tinder, go for it. But don’t come up with Asian or Western value. Majority of guys go to Okcupid, Tinder, all dating apps to have hookup. And if you happen to be stupidly in love with them, you’re looking for troubles. Call me a sexist crap all you want. Bring up 21st century mankind achievement. The last time I checked, the expectations men and women have from each other is still different.

    “boys will be rogues, but women have to stay chaste till marriage?” Victorian ridiculousness.”

    You seem like attacking me from your feminist point of view. You read my comment, that is for sure. But you took it way too far, extrapolate back to Victorian time, then attack me based on my comment that “Having sex on 2nd date is bad”.

    Did I say girls should stay chaste until they fall in love? Did I say boys will be boys. Where did I say in my comment? I specifically said “If you want sex, go for it.” But don’t make it between Asian and Western values, because they’re not. Looping back to your 1st comment.

    And don’t give me another Freudian slip.

  11. Rdm
    Rdm August 31, 2015 at 9:07 am | | Reply

    Jocelyn Wong,

    I’m sorry to hear your story. As I said in my very first comment, I was being blunt and you won’t like it. I’m not against your dating choice or sex drive. It’s your rights. But if you’re looking for someone with some seriousness, Tinder, Okcupid is not something you should enjoy.

    That’s all.

  12. Rdm
    Rdm September 2, 2015 at 11:02 am | | Reply

    When men discuss in public forum, they argue, they fought, they bash, they trash each other. Everyone reading the trails of comment can easily decipher who is making the logic or who stands corrected.

    But rarely do I see women fighting for logic in forum, instead rubbing each other and they talk about equality and 21st century. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    Ciao for now. Maybe forever. Rather go somewhere else.

  13. HopelessRomantic
    HopelessRomantic September 2, 2015 at 1:06 pm | | Reply

    Kyle sounds awful–I’m glad he’s not wasting your time anymore. I hope you get someone who will love, cherish, adore you, and will always remain faithful to you.

  14. Robin
    Robin September 2, 2015 at 9:24 pm | | Reply

    I have to side with Rdm. I don’t see any cultural values expressed in this story. What I do see is infatuation getting confused for love; a relinquishing of self-respect; and accepting things that are usually beneath your standards.

    Why is Kyle being made out to be the bad guy by all your readers when you knew he just wasn’t the guy for you?

    Also correct me if I am wrong but in some Asian cultures it is normal to bring gifts to perspective in-laws and not every guy’s parents that you have ever dated. Did you leave out the part of your story where this relationship was defined as dating to eventually marry? Was marriage even discussed?

    I don’t see how Kyle’s behavior was onerous or weird. Some people like to introduce their friends, male and female, to their parents. It doesn’t mean that nuptials are about to take place therefore gifts are not required.

    The miscommunication in this relationship would seem to be in not asking the important questions or discussing each other’s values.

  15. Fred
    Fred September 4, 2015 at 6:12 am | | Reply

    @ RDM.

    You may sound too harsh on Jocelyn Wong. Just take it easy on her.

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