Ask the Yangxifu: Chinese Boyfriend Seems Too Chinese To Western Girlfriend

A worried Chinese man
When a Western woman tells her Chinese boyfriend he's "too Chinese," he wonders -- is "too Chinese" unattractive to Western women?

Seborga asks;

my fiance has been together with me for 4 years. she always mentioning that it won’t be possible for her to be together with me if I were too Chinese. Since I have been overseas for 13 years since I was 16, she thinks I have the same wave length of thinking as her. I had few western gfs, and most of them taking “Chineseness” as something very negative. So does that mean thinking and behaving as a total chinese is very unatttractive in the eyes of mainstream western women?


Personally, I don’t really know exactly what your fiancee means by being “too Chinese” — a label that strikes me more as offensive than helpful.

I do know that mainstream Western women don’t always have the best impressions of Chinese men. Just look at the results of Dr. Jiehai Zhang’s study on what Western women think of Chinese men:

The survey shows, according to Western women, the most praiseworthy strengths of Chinese men were categorized as “looking after one’s family,” “willing to spend money on women,” “relatively serious about relationships between men and women;” weaknesses included “not so gentlemanly,” “poor physique, not enough exercise,” “no personality, lacking unique opinions.”

Confidence is often a big issue as well, which Zhang emphasizes in this (poorly translated) China Daily article about why Western women seem to give Chinese men the “cold shoulder.”

But look, it’s not just about Chinese men. Asian men, as a whole, have a hard time dating Western women:

“Creepy can be fixed,” [J.T. Tran] explains to the standing-room-only crowd. “Many guys just don’t realize how to project themselves.” These are the people whom Tran spends his days with, a new batch in a new city every week: nice guys, intelligent guys, motivated guys, who never figured out how to be successful with women. Their mothers had kept them at home to study rather than let them date or socialize.

Obviously, Chinese men have obstacles in their quest for Western women. But as for whether “thinking and behaving as a total Chinese is unattractive,” I am not exactly sure how to answer that. Maybe what your fiancee means, in her own rude sort of way, is that mainstream Western women don’t usually go for very traditional, very conservative Chinese men. And I would actually agree with that, because I’ve always found the more unconventional Chinese men — those willing to take chances, willing to ignore their parents to date/marry me, willing to be a little out of the norm — more interesting and date-worthy.

I don’t know what it is your fiancee doesn’t like about you — but it’s possible to change if you want to. She, however, needs to get specific about what that is, instead of just turning “Chinese” into an insult that she hurls your way.

Personally, I find it a little weird that she’s your fiancee — supposedly committed to marrying you — and yet she threatens to leave if you don’t shape up. Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is, do you want to spend the rest of your life with her?

Good luck!

What advice do you have for Seborga?

Do you have a question about life, dating, marriage and family in China/Chinese culture (or Western culture)? Every Friday, I answer questions on my blog. Send me your question today.

99 Replies to “Ask the Yangxifu: Chinese Boyfriend Seems Too Chinese To Western Girlfriend”

  1. I’ve noticed this also. Chinese men are generally very effeminate, which throws a lot of Western women off. When my sister visited China she thought that guys on the street all appeared by look gay to her by their mannerisms and behavior, etc. She didn’t mean it in a mean spirited way but the two cultures definitely assess a vastly different system of values upon males.

  2. Your gf obviously has negative concepts of the Chinese people, mostly prejudices I believe. I think it is time Chinese men, and for that matter Asian men, to stand up for themselves. There is no need to be less Chinese just to fit someone’s ideas of what is acceptable. Tell that to a western man, that he has to be less western otherwise it is not acceptable. This is ridiculous! If you don’t or can’t accept someone for what he or she is, you have no business to be with him/her. Period. And what is this nonsense about effeminate? Just because you don’t have rippling muscles, or you exercise less or not at all, doesn’t mean you are effeminate. There are many muscle-bound westerners who are effeminate or gay. In fact many easterners see muscle-bound westerners as rather vain and effeminate and who is to blame them when many gay men are in fact muscular? It is like easterners saying that westerners are effeminate because they exercise more and are vain and have muscles. I don’t know about Chinese men in China, but here in Malaysia, Chinese men do not hold hands with other Chinese men or men in general. But just because some Chinese men do hold hands with their friends, they are effeminate? Indian men in India also hold hands with each other, they are also effeminate? My god, maybe they are just more sure of their masculinity that they are unafraid to show their friendship. We should all wake up to the difference(s) between peoples and cultures and learn to accept them rather than be paranoid.

  3. Ask women around the world what they think of Chinese men and I’m sure that one thing you’ll hear in common is that they’re perceived as being effeminate, largely because of their small physical stature.

    Obviously there are exceptions – in my gym I occasionally see guys my size. But at 6’5″ 220 lbs I’d say I’m generally twice the size of the average Chinese man on the street (and 3x some of the women). Not only are Easterners and Westerners built different physically but we’re subject to different cultural values. The West celebrates masculinity in men and Asia just does not.

    One other thing I’ve noticed around the world interacting with women is that women of all cultures seem to be attracted to Western men while Asians have a difficult time attracting women of other ethnicities. There are exceptions, but an Asian guy pulling women in Europe or the US will have to work much harder, while Westerners in Asia are typically surrounded by women without doing anything.

    I don’t mean to twist the knife in an inadequacy you feel you might have, but it’s a fact that Chinese men are commonly perceived as effeminate by outsiders. Chinese men have many redeemable qualities though and some of my best friends are Chinese. Most of my personal Chinese friends are athletic and more masculine than the average Chinese person, but in my professional life the Chinese people that I interact with are practically asexual computer nerds.

  4. I would like to answer the question posed above by the dude:

    being too Chinese is laowai-speak for exhibiting the characteristics of the average person on the street who has never been abroad, speaks zero to little English, doesn’t really have any foreign friends and finds it impossible to discuss issues (or anything really) without viewing it through a China lens ie phrases We Chinese feel that, Our China is etc

    it doesn’t Westerners don’t use “we westerners” phrases, it just means that, from a westerners point of view, a Chinese person speaking like that has been “brainwashed” and could never really be able to communicate with anyone outside of China in anything but a very awkward way.

    So it might be that your fiancee is rudely complimenting you by removing you from the “average Chinese” that has been brainwashed and placing you in a special “Chinese but not” category that is attractive to her.

  5. @Charlie, We are not amused by your imperialistic rants. You may need help to liberate your thinking, and we are happy to oblige.

  6. Charlie,

    YOu are contradicting yourself .You have to understand the meaning of CULTURE. It has nothing to do with being CHInese or too Chinese. These people like to keep this kind of culture alive. We need to learn how to accept the beliefs of others. I understand that Western men have big EGO on everything like height , body size , big burgers, big steak, big butt , gigantic pizza . I still don’t understand why there are so many western males that are GAY!!!! THe bottom line is we must respect each other’s culture and the people. His family is CHINESE . Of course, he will talk and act a little bit like chinese. If China as a country has the capability of using its military and money to influence around the world, you will see the reverse ! China doesn’t invade western countries ,it’s vice versa dude. Don’t be too arrogant, nothing lasts forever! 6’5 220lbs huh? A big water buffalo still get used by others. If you want to talk about masculinity , being a macho man why don’t you talk to me. If I really want to talk and express my true personality, I’m more masculine than WESTERN MEN!!! I”m the leader of masculine men! Every word coming from me will be going thru meat and bone. I don’t like sissies that talk big but can’t deliver. IF I respect your culture, you have to respect mine! GET it? Have fun. Wild boar hunting here I come! *ROAR*

  7. Hey, do whatever it is that makes you happy. The same goes for Chinese people. I didn’t attack anyone personally and have no intention or reason to.

    Let me know if anything I said is untrue because I stand by my words. My opinions have been created through years of dating Chinese women, getting to know the society and culture, and traveling around the country. Perhaps your observations differ but I don’t believe that it invalidates mine. Feel free to draw whatever conclusion you like though (Water buffalo, that’s an interesting one).

  8. IT’s not about untrue or true. We’re on the same boat now. Everybody is learning everyday about different countries. The way we talk , act , eat. You only know Chinese males that are nerds but my chinese males aren’t. WHen I get back , let me open you people’s eyes on the way of life and understanding and accepting people ideas, views, way of life/culture/interests

  9. I agree with Charlie more or less.

    There is something fundamentally wrong with the current Chinese pop culture/ Culture. Intentionally or unintentionally the media in China as well as the west is emasculating Chinese male. you can easily notice the frequency of skinny girlie man shows up way higher than any pop culture media in the States. though I am not sure if it would keep that way since Mr. Biber from Canada is becoming more popular now days, but keep in mind he is only 17. but there is definitely something wrong with 30 years old on stage look, talk and act like 17 years old, who is very popular in Chinese media. This could brain wash the mass and effect the majority of young male population through self fulfilling prophecy.

    For a while I thought it could be the cause by low income + vegi and carb based diet or malnutrition, but I believe Chinese are taking in way more protein now days( since the 80s) than ever in history. that’s why you see big belly pencil neck nerdy girlie guys on the street. Another thing I have noticed is that there are way more gym rats and road runners in the State than in China % of population wise. So Chinese people, get off line and hit the gym!

    Another thing which could be the fact or at least a popular myth: somehow most girls in the States are just more attracted to the egotistical jerks than Mr. puppy love humble girlie man.

    Speaking in Chinese, I know the male quality of both “wen” and “wu” are both equally attractive in historical literature in Chinese culture but I believe the balance has certainly being tipped off today!

  10. @charlie, opinions and perceptions are funny things. Right or wrong, justified or not, they are largely coloured and conditioned by one’s upbringing and the culture and society one is brought up in. Of course, opinions and perceptions do change, especially when ones mixes around and/or opens onself to see that what once might justifiably be perceived by one as x is really nothing more than the sum total of one’s conditioning, upbringing and the society’s expectations. You see, there are westerners too who don’t exercise and there are westerners too who are small, and there are many obese westerners to whom the concept of muscles and exercise is anathema and who are really “soft” in every sense of the word. Are they effeminate? And many “masculine” and muscle-bound western men are gay. Are they effeminate or not? Maybe gay is not effeminate and maybe not being big in in physical stature and not being hairy is effeminate. I don’t know. You see, the problem lies with the beholder not the beholdee, unless the beholdee wants to be “beholden” to the beholder. Ah, see how silly all this is. The bottom line is, how can you be less Chinese or less American or less British or less western just to conform to one’s perception of what is acceptable. You can be gay, you can be effeminate, you can be muscle-bound, it’s not your problem. If the other can’t accept, that’s his/her problem. Of course I am not denying that westerners have this perception that Chinese men are soft and effeminate just as Asians have this perception that westerners are uncouth and coarse. That is not my problem. That’s their problem.

  11. Chinese men are attractive either way! (In my own opinion).
    They are honestly more gentlemen like than Western men! This is what actually makes me attracted to them because they actually are nice to me and interested in being friends with me.
    Seborga, your fiancee should love you for whom you are! It’s not love if they don’t love everything about you.

  12. Coming from a Western woman married to a Chinese man, I have to admit that I have probably uttered the words “Don’t be so Chinese” to my husband a few times. Although my wording probably isn’t the best, what I mean by this is that he is fitting into some stereotype of Chinese culture that is annoying to me. For example, I feel he is being too stingy with money, or he is feeding me some line like “don’t drink water after you eat your meal, it’s unhealthy” or when he opts to rinse his hands with cold water (no soap) instead of using the hand sanitizer I offer him after using the bathroom. It is probably not the best choice of words, but that is what I mean when and if I say it.
    As far as being effeminate, I can see why Western women (and men) with no real knowledge of Chinese culture might perceive that on the surface. First of all, Western media has portrayed Asian men that way for decades. And when you get over here, you see things like Chinese men who love Celine Dion, and guys walking around with purses. But as you get to understand things, you realize that in Chinese culture it is not considered un-masculine to like soft ballads. And those Chinese guys with purses are actually carrying their girlfriend’s purse for them as a sweet gesture.
    Above was a comment : “women of all cultures seem to be attracted to Western men while Asians have a difficult time attracting women of other ethnicities.”
    This has nothing to do with physical appearance, or perceived femininity. This is because for years Asian societies were closed to the world, and only in recent years have Asian males had a fighting chance to attract a Western woman. Also the media for decades has portrayed Asian men as effeminate and almost asexual. This influences people without them even realizing it. When I was growing up that’s exactly what I thought about Asian men. I wasn’t attracted to them in the least. It takes time to break down such stereotypes, but once you do you realize that the media is way off base.
    What is considered masculine or feminine differs a bit between cultures, that’s all. Any woman–Western or otherwise–who has actually dated or married a Chinese man has no doubt that the Chinese man is 100% man.

  13. @ordinary malaysian,
    i totally agree with you, oh by the way i m also a Chinese Malaysian. There is one thing i would like to comment on. I’ve noticed through the years that in the Asian man / White woman relationship, if the white woman is anglophile, meaning that english is her mother tongue, she tends to complain about Asian men being too Asian, or for that matter Chinese men being too Chinese. If the white woman in the relationship is not anglophile, that she speaks another language i.e french, she tends not to complain (too much) about Asian men/Chinese men being too Asian/Chinese.

  14. To Seborga, I have came over to the US when I was 14, so I can say that I understand how you feel in a way. I’ve been confused by my identity and avoided to admit who I am for several years. Then it hit me one day that I am who I am. Part of me is Chinese because that’s the culture that I was born into and part of is American because that’s the culture I grew up in and living with. So, don’t worry about being Chinese. If your fiance has problems with you, do what I have done with mine: ask her list out things she finds uncomfortable and have an honest talk with her. Perhaps these are just small things that she found uncomfortable because she didn’t understand why you do them, or perhaps they are personal acts that have nothing to do with you being Chinese. A relationship that’s cross-cultural is not easy so talking to each other and defusing any misunderstandings is the key. If you are truly going to marry this woman, she better get to know you well and you better do the same. I am sure you two can reach a compromise at some point.

    We also have a discussion on masculinity here so I just want to make a few comments on it. The universal role of man is the provider and protector. So having a good body is just part of it. Being able to provide for a family, at least for most Chinese, is valued more than physical features. That’s why all the Chinese parents rather their kids spend the first part of their lives studying and get a good career than building up their muscles. Is one way more correct than the other? That depends on what your value system is. To me, you can always build yourself a nice body but the opportunities to make a successful career and become a good provider is more tough.

  15. “Maybe what your fiancee means, in her own rude sort of way, is that mainstream Western women don’t usually go for very traditional, very conservative Chinese men.”

    With the exception of women on this and the AMWW website, very few white women in America will date Asian men. Heck they wont even date Asian men who are fourth generation Asian American, muscular and dont even know an Asian language! Back in Colombo SL, an American family sent their white daughter back to the US after she began to be interested in a Sri Lankan guy in their church! That about sums up the white American attitude…and by the way I did live in the States for over twenty years!

  16. “One other thing I’ve noticed around the world interacting with women is that women of all cultures seem to be attracted to Western men while Asians have a difficult time attracting women of other ethnicities. There are exceptions, but an Asian guy pulling women in Europe or the US will have to work much harder, while Westerners in Asia are typically surrounded by women without doing anything.”

    When you mention all cultures,does that include middle east and south asian cultures too?When you mention western men,are you refering to white men specifically?Because living here in US,I actually noticed the numbers of white women with non-white men (not limited to blacks) vastly outnumbered white men with non-white women.With the exception of east(or south east)asian woman,it is certainly rare to see non-white woman with a white men.Even the american born hispanic women doesn’t seem to be particularly interested with the anglo men.
    Besides it is actually more common to see western women with south asian men rather than the other way around.So how do we explain this inbalance rate of interracial couples?

  17. To be fair I think it’s just Americans who are more obsessed with the masculinity thing. Even compare to Europeans.

  18. @Seborga:
    I am hoping your fiancee’s comment aren’t how she really feels. I would hate for you two to marry and have children, only to have your fiancee say something like “Our children will be raised to ONLY learn English”…Of course my opinion IS biased….I have spent 5 years dating a Taiwanese-American man. I have sought all the information I can find to learn about his culture, his history and his language. He is an American through and through…a bit white-washed even(he often makes jokes about being a twinkie or a banana), and until he met me he rarely thought about his culture – It was more of a chore his parents made him do growing up then something he worked on learning. Sometimes we joke about how I know more about Chinese/Taiwanese history then he does!
    WITH THAT BEING SAID: I believe that for an interracial couple to make it they BOTH need to understand/learn about their partners culture. To have your fiancee say to you that you are “Too Chinese” is terrible, it is like she wants you to change who you are for her because she is a different race, and that cannot be good for either of you. When she met you and fell in love she knew who you were and how “Chinese” you were, so why would it be any different now? I do not believe there is anything wrong with you and I think the girls who have mentioned your Chinese-ness to you aren’t very openminded. I wonder if you put off a very FOB-y persona or if you are well blended into the culture where you live? Either way, you need to find someone who accepts ALL of you – “Too Chinese” or not. You should DEFINITELY have a discussion with her about what her issues are, and try to figure out if it is something that can be worked through(she thinks you’re too insensitive so you start to look at things from her perspective when in a disagreement), or something that cannot(She refuses to let you speak Chinese in front of her and says she will never learn it). I wish you the best of luck, and I hope it is something that was misunderstood and can be worked through! 🙂

  19. It would be more helpful if the girl explains what she means by “being too Chinese”. It’s never good to use generalizations, especially in inter-personal relationships.
    Taking in account that the guy has dated few Western girls before and spent half of his life abroad, I think that the problem is not about his “Chineseness” but there is simply something not working in their relationship itself.

  20. @ Charlie:
    LOL another UCLA “girl” ranting about asians
    I didn’t mean asians I just hate random asians in the laa ….Library.
    LMAO, i didn’t mean Chinese guys I mean random CHinese guys who i don’t know on the street….. BLA BLA BLA….
    I think you aren’t even a white

    if you are ture 6’5″ 200 pounds, you wouldn’t even bother to go on speaking of China, and bashing on CHinese Males, typical no life.
    plus who knows you are saying turth or not, I am 7’8″” and over 400 pounds, any one can make up shits, Buddy, do me a favor, get a life. =)

  21. The funny thing is that it makes me feel annoyed when girls laughed at “Chineseness” infront of me, though not particulalry towards me. But I feel I am still a part of it. I mean my parents are Chinese and without living in China for the first 15 years of my life. I won’t realize as much as I do, although I have to thank the western influences on me. I am 6’2” very built and speaks mutiple languages and lived in western countries for last 14 years, so the reasons I guessed they liked me is because “oh, you are not very Chinese”. I am kind of ashamed to be associated with a bunch of unsophisticated Chinese men and materialitic white worship Chinese girls, but for some reasons, I feel i am responsible to do something to help my fellow guys. It is like a identity crisis if allows me to put so.

  22. very interesting discussion here. it also appears to me that Chinese women themselves are bitter at their men dating westerners even though those westernize ones won’t even take a second look at their men. Why’s that?

  23. Um…if my boyfriend wasn’t `too Chinese` then I don’t think I’d be dating him in the first place. His upbringing, his heritage, his identity as a Chinese male, his morals, values, likes and dislikes, family…the fact that they are all so different to my own (yet in a funny way, the same) is what really attracts me to him.

    His ‘Chinese-ness’ is what really makes me tick. I love guys who don’t give a damn what anyone else thinks, who have a little extra spark that makes them different.
    There were a few Asian guys back home who I dated; I know this sounds bad but the fact is they could never keep my interest because they were just so WHITEWASHED.

    Apart from their physical appearance, nothing seperated them from any other average white guy and that just bored me because I might as well have been dating a white guy in the first place. They had totally lost their cultural and familial identity and I thought it was really sad that they weren’t brave enough to stand up against racism, REFUSED to remember their roots, DIDN’T make the effort to communicate with their parents in their first language, not be able to ignore what everyone else was trying to mold them into which is another average Joe off the street.

    When my man calls home and speaks Putonghua to his friends without feeling embarassed, cooks a famous dish from his hometown that his father passed on to him, tells me a story about his childhood, explains the origins of a Chinese festival to me – it makes me tingle with pride.

  24. Before I make more comments here, I would like you guys to know more about China and itself history . China had been suffering for centuries . The Emperors (kings) of China only thought about themselves. China didn’t have a gov’t system like the Parliament of England and the Congress of the U.S. Millions of Chinese starved to death in the early 1900’s . England tried to use Opium to control the Chinese people because China didn’t need anything from the WEST. China was self sufficient . By 1980, China opened the door to the West. China is still under Communism but doing business as Capitalism. The media and everything are controlled by the Central Chinese Gov’t!!Anybody will get executed if you go against the Gov’t beliefs. Western men are ARROGANT due to their freedom of speech and their environment in their own countries and they bring that ATTITUDE to China and other parts of ASIA. I don’t blame China for building up its own military. If you look weak or act weak , you will be bullied and will be colonized by the WEST. We must have respect for each other and our intersts as a culture , a country and as people ( small size , big size , blk, white , yellow ,red or blue).

  25. @ Holly , I understand what you mean totally . That applies to majority of Western men who married Asian women for same reasons you’re talking about! values, culture and respectful etc.

    @ Charlie, I know what you talk about and why you feel like this. You know not all CHinese men are small , short and weak. Hey, CHinese men in China like it like that okay. You just have to accept that . I live in America and the avg white men are NOT taller than me ( 6’1″) although they are round and chubby or fat ( 2 levels of belly ). I know it’s the diet that makes them fat. McDonalds , Burger King , Papa John ‘s Pizza in every corners ( FATS). I ACCEPT EVERYTHING ABOUT AMERICA AND THE CULTURE, TOO. Can you accept everything about China ? Chinese kids and men in America are huge ,too. I know a few 6′ tall, 235lbs ? 5’4″ 205 lbs ( 14 yrs old) . Most Chinese kids at 16 yrs old I know are 6’ to 6’4″. Charlie, why do you like to date Chinese women then? Are you going to marry your CHinese gf soon? Are you willing to work 6 to 7 days a week , 12 hrs a day like the majority of Chinese women and men if you marry a Chinese woman ? I know to some Western men that dating is like eating burgers no big deal. If this is a conquest for you to date Chinese women that’s fine ,too. There are 600 millions women in China and you can have them all if you want. You have to understand Western women are used to dating men who are the same size or bigger than them. They like to chat about everything. Most Chinese men don’t like to talk because the culture in China is different. It’s not that Chinese men don’t like to exercise and build muscles. We just don’t have time to do those activities. Asian countries have the LONGEST study time from morning to night. You have no time period.

  26. Who says Chinese men are not into sports and muscles. I’m one of them here. I played in basketball tournment from High School to College yrs. Still remember all the highlights . Every rebounds from me were above the rim, Baby!!!!!!!!!! one player was 6’5″ and I flied over the rim and went over his weak ass. I LOVE THAT. get me soo hyped up now. Well, bodybuilding is my second favorite sport. I would like to pose in the middle of the street in China. attack on my comments now j/k 🙂 lol hehehheheheh

  27. “weaknesses included “not so gentlemanly,” “poor physique, not enough exercise,” “no personality, lacking unique opinions” . In China, men rule over everything. Why do you think they keep on wanting baby boys instead of girls? I LOVE GIRLS more than boys because girls are more thoughtful than boys. Chinese men in China are not used to doing gentleman stuff like feeding their women with strawberry with chocolate etc. Of course , Chinese men have personalities of their own ,but NOT at first when you meet them. They open up slowly not like western men who open up and talk about every single things .I would love to have a talk with Dr. Jiehai Zhang to see if he has unique opinions , personality or his a real gentleman or not. He is a Doctor and his choice of words are poor. Chinese culture is very different from the West. My cousin let his father in law ( white ) to live with him and treat his FIL like his own. Will any Western Men take their CHINESE father in laws and allow them to live with your Chinese wives ? or freaking kick the chinese father in law over the cliff and forget about him? Chinese men will pay for everybody for dinner. Are you willing to do that or pay each bill separately? I know one Chinese woman with a tall white bf , 6’6″ . She has to support his lazy ass. She has to work 7 days a week to support him and his lifestyle while he goes to massage parlor and bring other women home . SHe’s crazy now because of him ( mentally ill and wants to kill herself). I support all relationship AMWW, WMAW etc . Instead of showing support , some people just making assumptions that Chinese women/ asian women are picking western men over Chinese men/ asian men all over the WORLD that is just pathetic! I know why there are less AMWW couples and I’m showing my 110% SUPPORT to correct any misunderstandings between the East and the West. Hey, western males with asian women out there! It’s wiser for you to fully support AMWW couples instead of bashing us. You also have to face discrimmination ,too. Seborga , Chinese saying : “it’s easy to change your body, it’s very difficult to change your personality ( Chinese ness or what so ever)” . I have white female friends that say they want their daughters ( 2 yrs old) to be like ASian and learn asian languages , have asian diet ( healthy), be smart like asian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These white women are exposed to ASian families , asian values , asian men , asian food etc. Seborga , you shouldn’t change a thing for your gf of four yrs , dude. If I had a gf says this crap about being too Chinese , I would say ” is being too westernized good? Westerners learned alot of things from Asian culture like Marital arts ,etc ,etc etc, now you’re arrogant and try to put me down? . If you walk out of that door , don’t ever come back. You will be sorry and I won’t take you back. Mark my words. I will buy Peking duck to celebrate when you leave”.

  28. @Sean : I don’t think it has much to do with muscles when it comes to Asian women dating white men. You will see plenty of white men who not in shape or just don’t fit the athletic mold but will always get tons of girls in Asia….and they don’t even have to go up to the girls, the girls come to them . I could be as athletic,charming, 6′ -whatever, etc. But I am still missing one quality that half of Asian women require…I am not white. You see symptoms of it with comments like “high nose”, “big eyes”, “small head” or changing there names when they hang around white people to something like “John”, “Mike”…etc. It’s called “Whiteworshipping/Inferiority complex” in Asia or in Asians. White is the standard of beauty in Asia. I had this complex when I was a child thinking I was ugly or wierd because my name was to hard to say or spell, or white people calling me chink, charlie, or whatever they use now.
    As for Charlies assessment of Asian males, it’s nothing new. I have heard it over and over. I was in Beijing for vacation with a friend who is Korean and they were some white men sitting in the table next to us and was talking trash about us and it was pretty much what Charlie’s view about Asian males, “Are they’re eyes open”, “They must be gay”. I think most white guys like Charlie generally like asian women, culture, and food, but they don’t think highly of Asian males or we are no competition for them in any. Most of them are there to get wasted, have sex, trash the place and then leave after they had they’re fill.

  29. I really don’t blame you for reaching that conclusion. I don’t think it’s accurate, but I don’t blame you for operating under that assumption since I’ve observed the same thing.

    My best friends in China are Chinese people and I’ve always lived among Chinese people and never with foreigners. I work with an entirely Chinese group of people and I generally spend as much (or more) time speaking Chinese as I do English.

    Like I said previously Chinese men have many redeemable qualities, and I don’t look down on anyone (foreigner or otherwise) who selects a Chinese man to date or marry. Do whatever it is that makes you happy.

    I already submitted my opinion on Chinese men and masculinity so I don’t feel any need to address that again or clarify the issue.

  30. To be honest,I don’t think east asian should even bothered about what western men think about them,I mean I’ve personally heard numerous black,latino or middle eastern and even south asian men talking crap about white men while at the same time doesn’t seem to mind enjoying the company of white women.
    It’s kinda ironic that most white men look at chinese men the exact same way black men or(brown) look on the white men

  31. @charlie,
    there is a stigma attached to being a muscular man in the Chinese culture like you have attached to blond girl in western culture. Dumb. Now i know that isn’t true but it is the case. Don’t believe me try asking around. Muscular men are usually associated with blue collar jobs like construction work or works that require physical power but very little or no brain power. Just ask any Chinese man in China if he would rather be viewed as being effeminate by westerners or if he would rather be viewed as being dumb by the Chinese society as a whole. I would advice if you like any Chinese girls please make sure they are not attracted solely to your muscles because that can only mean they view you as their plaything.

  32. Okay another thought here. There are 1.3 billions Chinese in China. Do you think it’s easy to make a good living? There is an inbalance of income in China. Chinese girls want good lifestyle and wealth too. They think it’s a sure thing if they land western men ( BIG softshell turtle = translate in chinese). If I go to china those women will stick to me like honey ,too. Look at the owner of Playboy magazine. He’s 86 yrs old and wealthy. Why young , beautiful 22 to 25 yrs old blonde women want to marry this old fart? It’s the lifestyle of having everything like a limo, mansion, assist her with acting/singing career. Do you think it’s about having sex w/ an old 86 yrs old man? It’s the false image that Chinese women think of foreigners. How much does a Chinese woman /man make in China ? THese women are struggling let me tell you. THe gov’t is rich but the citizens are suffering!Lifestyle , lifestyle,lifestyle. When those chinese women come to America , they have to work their ass off too. It’s a given. EVerybody has to work in America period! Come here let you guys get a taste of it!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don’t even know what’s the meaning of afternoon nap for decades.
    Charlies, so you love it huh? like my style huh? Different countries have different hobbies, interests, sports, image of a man. I see nothing wrong with being too American, French, Chinese, Spanish, Japanese, too British. You are what you are. If you love a person, you have to accept everything about him/her. take it or leave it damn it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  33. @Bruce What a fascinating break down. If only I could have conversations with people as intelligent as you all day.

    @John I’m content being their plaything for the time being. But I hear you.

  34. @Charlie:

    I hope you find the time to read this thoroughly because I am your stereotyped effeminate skinny Chinese computer nerd. Haai ^_^. I am studying Elec Eng at a decent university. I study and do assignments almost all the time with fellow nerds and rarely see girls at all due to courseload. The ones I see briefly are mostly Asian. I never drink or smoke or party. I am a virgin and will not have sex before marriage. I enjoy programming and learning about electronics so much that I spend a good chunk of my summer free time in my parents’ basement designing, building and testing circuitry. And I like to repair broken consumer electronics for fun.

    I also happen to be able to lift (squat to stand) an average white guy a dozen times. And fireman carry him 100 meters. I can also knock you out with one kick to your head in a blink and half with hands tied. I have marched/ran over 6km with a 80lb backpack in full sun, carrying a rifle. I have trained to perform consecutive one story high drops onto concrete with no injury. I have trained pushups in summer heat to past dehydration point where my body could no longer sweat. You may punch or kick me in the stomach, max power, multiple times, with no effect.

    I was able to perform over 60 pushups in a minute. I have arm wrestled with white “gym rats” whose biceps were 1.5x larger than mine and won. I have tied against white “gym rats” whose bicep mass was 2x as large. My hand, wrists and elbows are just slightly thicker than that of an average white woman, and their hands are like apes. Every part of their body is larger than mine. Thus, they were amazed and invited me to pump iron with them. I declined due to my academic priorities.

    I am your effeminate skinny Chinese computer nerd. You see me but do not know me. You see how I appear but you do not see who I am.

    Perhaps I am too Chinese.

  35. Speaking as a woman, in all honesty I don’t think most girls really care about all that stuff LOL. NGL nearly all women like money, being treated to the finer things in life, a tall guy that is able to ‘protect’ them…and Chinese women especially are a bit more *ahem* upfront about that. The whole car/apartment/180cm tall thing etc.

    However, demanding and actually receiving are two VERY different matters. If you are in China, take a look at the couples around you. Obviously not only rich, buff, tall, intelligent or ‘foreign’ guys can find a woman and get married in China, though these qualities certainly might help. Only a small portion of these hyper-materialistic women will actually have these shallow material wants satisfied because there are only so many rich guys in China after all, and in turn these guys are all demanding younger and more beautiful wives. Again the `beauty for cash` transaction happens again… *bleh*

    Perhaps more ‘evolved’ and intelligent women would care less about these traits because unlike millions of years ago there is no need for a huge dominant male partner to protect our cave & fend off predators (like mammoths and Sabre tooth tigers…jk), no need to rely on a man for money, or to provide for us, in this day and age.
    But at the end of the day, the only people who are left comparing their salaries/bicep+ penis sizes are the MEN, while the women have got bored and already p*ssed off somewhere. LOL!

  36. Holly, I wish more women like you are produced in this world :). But to “some men” they want to compare if your effeminate , mascular, big or small. I don’t like to compare either . I’m very conservative and humble ,that’s why I’m always happy.

    Do you know why the British people think they are superior over other races and the Chinese ? England had a very long history and the laws , the British people and gov’t cooperated with each other. They controlled most of the world in the past like Africa , India, Australia ,etc and they tried to control America but failed greatly. Why do you think during the Opium war and WW11 , China got its ass kicked? When you have the laws passed smoothly and money coming into a country. You will create a bunch of arrogant people in that country. Now, you know why foreigners USED to look down on Chinese men ( weak , gay, childish, sexless , asexual , just fill in the blank). China is getting stronger ,so its image is getting better and better. Chinese focus more on school and work ethnic far greater than most countries. In America, especially in California, Universities are dominated by ASian. ASian don’t focus on football , basketball or baseball that much. They only do that on their spare time only. Yes, being a great provider is a key to asian success in any countries. You know building this muscular look takes a lot of hard work , food and supplements. It took yrs , commitment and delication to transform my body. Once, I had the body, I’ve realized that being a provider was more important at certain age. When I knew what I wanted , I focused extremely hard on making money. I had to work 7 days a week 365 days a yr for 7 yrs. As a consultant, the only thing I have to do is to open my golden mouth . Money was flying in all directons coming at me in full force . Of course, everything is about timing and the right job at that moment. Now, I just lift weights just to maintain what I have. My chest was bigger than most women’s breasts 🙂 . I used to love to bounce them on command lol. I can really tolerate pain and hard labor job ( construction) although I don’t do construction for a living. I wear a tie to work if I want to. Just say I’m an animal on home projects. If your wife wants something for the home will you hire a contractor or build it yourself? I built lots of stuff for her already. I need 3 buffalos (strong men) to dig my 5 ft deep fish pond. You dig the dirt and push it with wheel barrel by yourself. Nobody can touch you or your shovel. You’ll be disqualified :). Any volunteers? Guess not.. Anyway, don’t judge on a person appearance. Your guess will be wrong most of the time. I have all kinds of friends like skinny asses to fat asses ,muscular freaks , young to old . They are all nice, honest , caring people. It’s the inside that counts . I know most people won’t buy that.

  37. @charlie,
    from your comments i gathered you get a lot of Chinese girl admirers in china. Good for you and i am happy for you. But i can’t help but sense that you unconsciously attributed much of that to your being 6’5″ and 200lbs quality. Please let me remind you that this is an insult to both you and your admirers. Chinese girls are far deeper than that and so are you. Give yourself more credit and perhaps then you will really start respecting (not accepting. I know you are entitled to your own) other cultures and opinions rather than hiding under the pretense of trying to learn from their cultures.

  38. @anonymous Talk is cheap. Bragging about how much you squat on the internet makes you look insecure.

    @John I don’t think I’ve offered enough information for you to reach that conclusion. The only reason I mentioned my height and weight was to demonstrate the perspective from which I’m looking at the situation. I didn’t expect insecure commenters to emerge with a barrage of highly entertaining and insecure comments like:

    “I dunk over weak asses”
    “I’m more masculine than western men. I’m the leader of masculine men!”

    and perhaps a new favorite, the Chinese programmer Batman:

    “I am your effeminate skinny Chinese computer nerd. You see me but do not know me.”

  39. @charlie,
    please accept my sincere apology for jumping into conclusion. I love commenting on the internet (my first time) as i learnt a lot from it just as you have i am sure not just about issues but also about people and ourselves. Already i see your (and my own) weaknesses and strength as a beautiful human being regardless of the size of your stature. I just knew a real man is in you and me ( i am just 5’7″). Love you as a fella human being (no punt intended) and wish you all the best. Bye and out.

  40. I just love you guys lol .. I think it’s very funny. I don’t know how old are you guys here but I’m 40 and I really don’t have time talking nonsense back and forth here. So you people think a 6’1″ Chinese man can’t dunk ? If you guys say no, then you haven’t seen much. Come to my gym, let me bring a few friends . After that , let’s hit the weights room . We’re very dedicated to our careers but we like sports too. Of course, with married life it’s different and more responsibilities. I have proofs for my injuries. Hard evidence. That is the difference between Asian men and Western men. Asian men don’t show off ,dude. We don’t show everything in the open man. Besides, women here hate it when we talk about muscles , money, height and sex. Insecure comments from me (BRUCE)? Anyway, I won’t defend myself either ;therefore, you don’t know the truth for the rest of your life. Because this is the internet that’s you don’t trust what I say here. Too bad you just lose another honest person here pal.Yes, it’s entertaining to me I don’t know about you guys.
    Charlie, I will jump over you on the basketball court and I’m not kidding with you. Believe it or not . It’s up to you. Of course, It’s kinda silly to bet online. My ankle was sprained due to players sticking their feet out trying to hurt ya. Those were my memories of basketball. Trust me I have good memory. I don’t need to prove myself here. I have proven myself in real life already. I won’t post pictures either nor do I want to show off. You guys are lucky that I comment here. My purpose here is to show support for my AMWW couples. Do we understand each other now? Charlie, do you show support for AMWW couples, seriously? We need your support also. If you say no, this is my last comment . Okay label me as effeminate and nerdy then :), so you will be wrong for the rest of your life.

  41. Bruce, I’m sure when you “dunk over weak asses” Chinese flags are proudly waving in the background and patriotic songs are blaring as foreigners larger than you are on the ground sobbing in disbelief. Thanks for the laughs.

  42. wow the sheer volume of knowledge one gains just by commenting and reading comments here is astounding. The clear contrasts in how the east and the west view musculinity is just so interesting. In the east particularly in China musculinity is usually associated with one’s inner strength such as patience, a high threshold for tolerance (ie. the ability to withstand discrimination and humiliation and still stay cool about it) and courage etc whereas in the west (just an impression after reading all these comments. I may be wrong) it is associated with mainly physical strength (ie. who can jump the highest or run the fastest or lift the heaviest etc). Just an observation. Not for me to judge who is right.

    I agree with Jocelyn and Rebekah here that you need to find out what your fiancee really meant specifically about you being too chinese. If she is having trouble dealing with your heritage (ie your black hair or your flat nose, things you can’t help but born with) perhaps it is time to move on. Both of you will be better off. Boy i hate to suggest people break up (the chineseness in me i guess). But if it is about a certain habit say spitting in public places (btw spitting is not chineseness you know. I don’t spit.Never has once in my life) then i can understand her not being comfortable with it. If you love her enough to want to change for her you will only have my best wishes. Good luck.

  43. Hi Jocelyn,
    Pls attach a picture of a guy with fleshy cheeks and without glasses in your next post. A lot of arguments here centre around what the graphics insinuate (mainly of constitution). Hopefully with better graphics attention can be diverted to a broader enquiry into other attributes of Chinese.


  44. Charlie,

    Okay so you’re a supporter then .I confirmed for you already. I think you misunderstand the main point here. I don’t take side on any countries or Chinese flag waving. See what kind of conclusion you’re jumping to now. To me it’s about peace and transquility ,not comparing on the amount of money you have or anything else. People should understand different cultures and values and not look down on each other. I hope you guys out there understand what I’m talking about. Anyway I hope you guys have a nice day . Can we all get along ? 🙂 . Charlie, wanna shake hands ?

  45. Seriously, whenever a westerner speak of China or the Chinese ppl, they tought they know much…
    I’m a chinese but even i’ve still to learn about China and the chinese culture/civilization…

    Come on ppl, there r 1.3 billions of chinese excluding the overseas chinese…
    To generalize and equate all chinese more or less the same with ur chinese friends is flawed…
    It’s like saying that all 1.1 indians r similar to Kumar or 1 bilions Africans r similar to Usain Bolt…

  46. @Bruce I never targeted you individually, but right off the bat you had a problem with me expressing my opinion on Chinese men. I never had a problem with you or anyone else to begin with.

    @Zen A common misconception that Chinese people have is that foreigners “cannot understand” their well-storied history. This is a myth. This recent post about Defending Chinese Culture addresses the issue:

  47. BRUCE

    No American or CHINESE Person gives a flying fuck how many people you can dunk over unless you’re playing in the NBA. So shut the hell up.

  48. @Charlie,

    I am an arrogant showoff dumbass in previous post because I was extremely pissed at the way you mentioned computer nerds. And Chinese ones at that. And you are right, talk is cheap. I could be squatting helium balloons. But please hear me out. Just because some guy looks skinny and effeminate doesn’t mean he is actually weak. There’s plenty of skinny guys in the military that have more strength, courage, and toughness than everyone on here. I’ve served and trained with those guys. You cannot believe the power that comes out of their seemingly frail builds. They were Caucasian and Asian alike.

    I think deep down everyone is insecure to some extent – big or small, attractive or unattractive, nerdy or not, regardless of race or ethnicity. We are all in the same boat – why must you judge others for the way they carry themselves? I know that you’re not racist, because you do have Chinese friends from the gym (that happen to have “respectable” builds). But masculinity extends to those white collar “nerds” who work overtime for their family’s mortgage. Manliness doesn’t end at the gym.

    Anyways I think everyone deserves your respect, even computer nerds. If it weren’t for them, we wouldn’t even be on here. And that respect also goes for gays, lesbians, and transsexuals. Because we’re all human and we all deserve it.

    I still stand by my comment because I am still your effeminate skinny Chinese computer nerd. Add insecure, Batman, and loser to that. Perhaps gay and without testicles. But if you do see such a person in life, I just ask that they be treated with the respect and dignity that you feel you and your friends are entitled to.

  49. Dude, I’m totally cool with computer nerds. I work in a software park surrounded by thousands of nerds. Today a co-worker showed me photos of his WWF (American Pro Wrestling) figurine collection with great enthusiasm. I have Starcraft installed on my laptop and I’ve played Magic: The Gathering inside of the last week. Trust me, I have a measure of geek blood flowing through my veins.

    I didn’t mean it as a personal attack, I was merely stating a fact about perception. It’s a stereotype, of course there are exceptions. Chinese men are just as capable of being as masculine (by Western definition) as anyone else, but the fact is that almost none do because it’s not part of their culture. I have nothing against you or anyone personally and didn’t intend to antagonize, but rather sympathize with the plight of this blog post: “Chinese Seems Too Chinese to Western Girlfriend”.

  50. Jason,

    Say that in front of a group of Black basketball players in the basketball court. I’m not helping you dude. That’s why with people like your personalities/ thinkings l, we have sterotypes. If you have a kid that really want to play sports. I know you won’t like him play becasue you only look up there really HIGH like the NBA. Please don’t let your kid play anything sports okay . In your mind, he won’t make it to the NBA. “No American or CHINESE Person gives a flying fuck how many people you can dunk over unless you’re playing in the NBA. So shut the hell up.” Without players on High School basketball team and Football team (college), you have no NBA or NFL . I won’t call you names because I want you to look and feel DUMB. I talk to idiots everyday anymore, I’m used to criticism. Don’t just make ONLY one comment and run away and stand on the sideline. See if you have the commitment to write more comments here for the next yr. My prediction will be right. Instead of encouraging people to do better, you push people further down. Good Job. Job well done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  51. Charlie,

    I have no hard feelings toward you or anybody here or out there. I deal with people so whatever I hear on my one ear out the other. That’s why I can survive in this job over a decade. This is my OPINION ONLY okay. I think China can change the image of the people by making more macho man movies, advertise with more muscular Male models on billboards/t.v commericals. Encourage more weight lifting programs. Promote more bodybuilding contest. Set up an independent division that only focus on more muscaline things, activities and image that work with the media . I think China can accomplish these goals because it has MUCHO DINERO . 20 to 40 yrs goal because the next generation kids will be the future. Current Chinese people are in a different mind set right now. WIth money and education , you can do anything or change anything you want to. It takes America , 40 to 70 yrs to do it. Sports and bodybuilding and macho man movies were not mainstream.You know High School and Universities here encourage kids to play more sports and give scholarships.Do you know why? The schools make millions on their brands ( tickles, caps, donations ) Think about it.

  52. @Charlie

    The reason why u get so many upset chinese male replies is bcoz the way u express ur opinion earlier(in a very imperialistic and egoistic tone) when u say most chinese r effeminate…
    To be honest, of course there r effeminate chinese, whites, blacks as well…
    As i say ealier, dun try to equate all/most chinese r the same just bcoz u met some efeminate ones…
    i ‘ve met lots of white guys who r bald b4 they reach 30s, does it mean they r all similarly bald?
    Of course there r westerners who r not ignorant on China/Chinese ppl…
    But China is so vast with 1.3 billions of ppl..China is deffinitely not a homogenous country with diverse culture itself….
    Seriously, there’s a danger trying to oversimplify things…

  53. @Charlie, Thanks for the clarification. I agree that Chinese men are perceived in the West as being rather nerdy and effeminate because I’ve experienced it. And I also agree that it’s not a part of our culture to express masculinity openly, but rather to imply it through hard work, dedication to wife and kids, and respect towards parents and peers.

    In contrast, expressing romantic emotions such as “I love you”, kissing, hugging is actually perceived as being weak and feminine in Chinese culture. Whereas, in Western culture, it is expected of a man toward his girl.

    And therein lies the big difference and misunderstanding.

    @Bruce – as China enters further into 21st century, it will definitely adopt more Westernized view of masculinity – physical prowess and romantic expression. I’m from a family that values ability far above appearance, even by Chinese standards – so I believe that real men must be steely, honest, dedicated and no bullshit first. But I have also come to realize that romance and perception are important too, but not nearly as important as the former.

    Every man must find their own definition of manliness, regardless of which culture they come from – and if their girl doesn’t like that, then.. either let her go or change.

  54. @ anonymous ,

    So you’re into guns ,too? I have an AR 15 , deer hunting rifle (3006 bullet) , Glock 19 and a 1911 Kimber .45 full size barrel and other guns. I heard you talked about carrying a rifle . A lot of my Chinese male friends are successful with their careers due to their hardwork ethics. Have you people work 75 to 80hrs a week before 7 days a week? I have done that. I totally agree with you on no bullshit, honest and dedicated. Normally, when I say yes on something, I won’t change my mind. If another man changes his mind, I would say ” Are you a man or not, sissy ?” It’s an expression only to make him get back on track again. Seriously, being a provider and a good dad is hard work. If asian couples have kids, they are very focused on their kids’ education, disciple and monitor those kids 24/7 so they won’t get into troubles and have a better life. It’s in our blood and DNA? Maybe but I don’t know. Westerner men married asian women for family values also right? Asian women are NOT submissive and that’s the truth. I have sisters and female cousins and female friends, they are not submissive man. They’re bossy and demanding BUT in a very nice, wonderful way :). They will complain like this ” open more businesses, change jobs, invest, big a bigger house, buy expensive cars ” . Where do you find time to pump iron and play sports huh? Anyway, I think every subjects that deal with CHinese men will take a long long time to discuss and decode here.Yes, being a good provider is #1 on my list and #2 is education and #3 are body and sports ( exercise). I don’t ever want to be POOR again . Those are my opinions.

  55. Looking over many of the comments I am reminded of a gender studies class I had once. I learned a lot about how we are taught to be feminine or masculine. I do hope that Chinese men will not let anyone, especially the media dictate what is acceptable. I can see how Japanese, Korean, Chinese men… are viewed more often today as masculine. I think that the young man who is having difficulty with his girlfriend shouldn’t worry about rather he is perceived as effeminate by his girlfriend, but should decide for himself rather he is good enough just as he is. She should be fair to him and tell him exactly what it is she has a problem with. I hope Seborga is reading this comment and will be encouraged by what I am saying. Seborga no one can define you, or tell you who you are. Only you can make that decision.

  56. Yes, Seborga that’s right .I agree with Namenotgiven. I’ve studied Psychology of Human Sexuality in College and case study on musculinity also. All my brothers and I are masculine and we’re 110% Chinese. When you hear my families talk man , you have to bite your teeth together. Soo Macho. soo hardcore. I love it. We learned how to cook when we’re 7 yrs old and to be self dependable unlike 14 yrs old kids today who have to be fed by mommy. Will get choked on fish bones or don’t know how to eat a boiled lobster. NORMALLY, CHINESE MEN DON’T SHOW THEIR MASCULINE SIDE IN PUBLIC BECAUSE OF SHOWING RESPECT. When you become very close, maybe they will show it. Just from my experience…I’m going to bang some weights in my exercise room in one hr. This time the barbell will bend. Yeah!! but Dr. Jiehai Zhang’s study says Chinese men —>>“poor physique, not enough exercise,” “no personality, lacking unique opinions” Tell him to say that to my face. We’ll put 315lbs bench bar on top of him and let him push it up. When you’re doctor = higher level of knowledge and education , you should use words wisely, doctor!! I’m not an Alpha male . I’m just an average Joe and I figure that out already. Being humble is the key to friendship and lifetime of success.

  57. Cultural differences in perception. Interesting. Now i know why I have always viewed Obama as a man and George w Bush as a boy.

  58. First of all, a lot of guys here are going off topic and talking about masculinity. In any case, I’m a Chinese guy and I don’t find Charlie’s assertions offensive at all.

    Secondly, the title of this article is quite misleading and does not match the italicized description just below the title. The title suggests that the Western girlfriend thinks her Chinese boyfriend is too Chinese, when in fact, it is the exact opposite: She is with her Chinese boyfriend because he is the same way of thinking as she does. Otherwise, she would not be with him.

    It is perfectly normal for a woman to want to be someone who shares the same cultural values. Race and culture are not the same. A white woman may be more inclined to be with a Chinese man who is westernized and culturally similar to her, rather than with a Chinese man who is culturally foreign.

  59. @ethan,
    I agree. I am not offended either. There is no ill intent by Charlie whatsoever. Besides words can’t hurt anybody unless you let them.
    Stick to the points guys and thanks for the enlightening discussions. I will be sure to come back and visit more often. Bye.

  60. We’re not off subject here. Everything is linked to each other I believe. Chinese and Asian men behave differently from Western men. How different? Well, when we normally talk , we are a little bit polite. Asian women always complain about Asian men being too loud like yelling at each other. You know majority of kids in the West can yell at parents but in China, they will be spanked physically. Chinese always emphasize on respecting others and the elders. About Chinese body size.. Chinese people within 20 to 40 yrs, don’t have much meat to eat. Not enough steak, pork, chicken ,fish or milk ( animals products). How do I know that? I have relatives living in China. Not enough exercise huh? Most Chinese have to grow food for themselves man. They work in the fields . That takes alot of carlories per day to have a huge body size. They walk all the time ( no cars etc). Tell me how can you have massive muscles and big bone structures if you don’t have enough proteins man. Look at the salary issues. $800 rmbs=$100 USD. How much goes to food already? Well, let’s have westerners living in China just let tHe Chinese then. Westerners must have kids in China to make it fair. Same living conditions, same food, same wages, same housing, same jobs and see if they will be big or effeminate looking. Do you people understand that if a person try to be too manly in Chinese culture , they think you’re uneducated, and have no manners. In Conclusion, be yourself . If she doesn’t like you being too Chinese , she’s not open minded.

  61. @Serboga: No matter what personal differences you guys might have, it is never nice to bring in your race or ethnicity into it. Either she is ignorant, not mature enough or simply mean. Being Chinese or anything might mean different things to different people, including you and I am sure that goes much deeper than the one dimentional stereotypes you see around you. I would suggest that you try explaining this to her and make her see the deeper meaning behind “being chinese”. I doubt she would say this again if she knew it offended you so deeply.

  62. I think I understand his girlfriend. I think by “too chinese” she means the traditional conservative type. Although I date only asian guys, I wouldnt want to date one who has never been to a western country. Not because I don’t like the chinese way of thinking, I just think where might be some personality and culture clashes in the relationship because of that, I do have a very difficult character. It is not a total turn off for me, I would date guys in china, but if I where to choose, I would rather choose someone who has been in the western countries, it is just easier for me to be with someone, who also understands my culture and has a european way of thinking. Although I think that now there are also a lot of open-minded chinese guys who grew up in china (or other asian countries).

  63. @Ethan
    totally agree with you. this is how I understood what she was saying too. I think Jocelyn misunderstood the question. The girl never threatened to break up with him.

  64. I’m traditional and non traditional at the same time. It’s like having both worlds. I have friends that are White but they like me because I’m an honest person ,not for my Chineseness. I understand the meaning of “too Chinese” and I always want to find out truth why people think the way they are. People like what they lack in their families or cultures. Yesterday , I saw a huge , short white guy (250 to 270 lbs) with a tiny Asian woman ( 100 to 115lbs). He’s old (gray hair) and she’s younger. They look happy. It’s none of our business to judge!Americans are huge I’m telling you!Wherever you walk, you see huge people.The diet is killing us slowly!!!! America has fat asses and China has skinny asses in my opinion. Which one will you guys pick ? I saw another AMWW couple with a beautiful baby. She’s tall, slim,beautiful and blonde. She is very happy holding their daughter and ASian guy is good looking and slim also . They look extremely happy with the baby. AS long as people are happy , it’s none of our business and please don’t judge. If we always judge on the outside, we will be wrong. I’ve learned that if people are nice to you , you are nice to them back. If they always take advantage of you and mean to you, you have to be mean back. I ‘m the sweetest, nicest and most caring person in real life .

  65. @Ethan right, these people dont even get the original post. The western girlfriend were basically saying that “it is good that his boyfriend is not behaving so chinese”. And I am sure she has been to China and realized how lucky she is without an “average” Chinese. I have to admit that it is not so cool to behave like the average Chinese, full of greed, lack of proper hygine (spitting…), loud and insecure in front of westerners.
    I mean I am referring to the average Chinese, of course not pointing to every one.

  66. Too Chinese and avg Chinese mean very very traditional, very conservative, not out spoken, don’t socialize with others ( including westerners), not open to others, hang out with Asian or Chinese only ? , you fill in the rest…..

    You see there are lot of misunderstandings on ” too Chinese”. Chinese people socialize all the time in China. Chinese people hang out with Chinese in the West is because they feel more connected with Chinese. Spitting? Is that true for Chinese men? ha ha ha. I love this conversation. It’s like ” I can’t married you , you’re too Americanized, too westernized ” What the hell is wrong with those people out there in this world?

  67. Seborga,
    Don’t ever be afraid that things won’t work out between your gf or spouse!!! Once the woman feels your fear, she will use that on you. Trust me other women would love to be with you. Sometimes, a woman will have influence from her friends so her circle of friends is important ,too. “if you stay with negative people , you will be negative”. In order to look more manly like growing a beard or mustache , that’s a no no. I hate facial hair. I shave every morning. See the more I talk to people , the more they want to talk to me so Seborga, you have to present your argument from your perspective to your gf. If she’s understanding , she will like you even more!!!!!!!!!!!

  68. Here is my 2 cents on what constitutes a “real man”
    To me, a real man is someone who takes care of his family and is there for them.
    I have a friend whose father was a bodybuilder, well he left his family when my friend was 3 years old. Now you tell me if he’s a real man or not.

    As far as the whole feminine style in China, it’s just that, a style. It will go away soon just like bell bottom jeans and using the world “whazzupppp”

  69. Like Ethan and a few enlightened others, I am not offended by Charlie’s post. From a technical standpoint, it was direct and succinct whilst his detractors’ responses were choked full of spelling/grammatical errors and piss poor sentence structure that betrayed their lack of English fluency. From a content perspective, Charlie should be commended for presenting a straightforward and honest observation of the situation “on the street”. It was courageous and non-politically correct. Unfortunately, the majority of responses from types like “Bruce” and company, were of a defensive nature; rabidly trying to counter the blatantly obvious with anecdotal exceptions.

    Here are the facts folks: From a western eye, the vast majority of mainland Chinese men DO look effeminate. Blame it on a combination of genetics, and culture. Western media certainly does NOT do any favors by piling on the insulting stereotypes. Finally, you add the disgusting personal habits of many mainland Chinese dudes and you’ve got this package that most white western women find utterly repulsive. Hell, even Asian guys like me who were born and raised in the west and who go OUT OF OUR WAY to counter these physical and cultural impediments (i.e: hitting the gym, speaking perfect English, being well groomed, being open and expressive) are still shafted by mainstream white females. Such is the overwhelming power of media conditioning on a society. This is reality. This is the truth.

    So okay, the OP’s g/f probably hasn’t traveled much internationally and her perception of attractiveness remains heavily influenced by western culture. I neither blame nor fault her for this. In a perfect world, she will like the OP for who he is, “Chinese-ness” and all, wherever and whenever. The fact she agreed to date him at all suggests she saw SOME redeeming aspects to him. She provided the OP with honest feedback about her feelings that, while raw and crude, reflects the mentality of many western women. But this guy chose to date a white chick and this is what he got. Sorry, but she’s a regular person just like him. She is imperfect and susceptible to cultural conditioning like everybody else. She is the rule, not an exception. This guy needs to man-the-fuck-up and make the changes needed to keep her interested. Perhaps she would be willing to meet him in the middle. Perhaps she won’t. Life’s not fair?

    A teacher once said to me: “If you want fair … go to the state fair”.

  70. Whitewashed Banana ,

    What is your solution for the Chinese men in China then? How do we change this ” effeminate image” ? I’m informing you guys right now that I’m not arguing with you. I’m just discussing here. There are always some things that we don’t like in every race or culture. All I’m saying is that you can not label all Chinese men are like that. If I say majority of Black men are voilent and irresponsible and women have to pay for their meals . Is that true? White men are bullies and mess around with several women at one time and pornography addicts /sex addicts ? is that true? Should we have more Chinese men go abroad and study what are not acceptable to westerners like being too effeminate? We are almost at the end of discussion on this top here. Give me some solutions guys.
    All jokes aside. thank you



  71. @bruce,
    I personally don’t care how feminine they might look. mainland chinese guys go out with mainland chinese girls and if being effeminate is in style right now, well chinese girls don’t seem to mind it either. What repulses me personally is the habbit of spitting on the street and the lack of personal hygiene. I lived half a year in beijing and never got used to the spitting habbit. of course not everyone does that and the ones who spit are mostly the elder men. but it is still there and western girls are still very repulsed by it. also then riding an overcrowded subway i couldn’t help but be disgustet by the foul breath smell all around me. I don’t want to be offensive, I love chinese guys and the main reason I prefer oversees chinese is not because of the looks but because of the cultural reasons I already mentioned in the comment above. but there are still things mainland chinese guys could change to be more attractive, mostly to pay more attention to being “well groomed” as whitewashed banana said. Because girls, no matter chinese or western, pay a lot of attention if the guy takes care of himself or not.

  72. Yue,

    I agree. A few months ago, I commented on spitting and littering in China. These problems should be corrected during first day of school for the kids. Adults , teachers , parents, high ranking officials should be responsible . They should be fined and jailed , no bribery can save your butt. I think it’s about wealth from each family too. These Chinese people are struggling to make ends meet and you people should understand that. My friends and families never dare to spit or throw trashes around me. I’m a clean freak. My comments will be crude and I make them picked it up. I will use profanity on them. WE encourage flossing in our families and friends, it’s good for our heart and health . It’s not just for hygiene only.Any more suggestions from Westtern men like Charlie out there. Well, Charlie ? Do you have any solutions?

  73. right, I mean the mainstream western chicks see Chinese guys as the aliens. I have been in the seduction community for a while. I have acheived as far as I can in seducing white women within my ability and range. I have been with swedish model, german Aupair, even diplomat. But trust me, it is not like what J.P. Tran said, as a Chinese guy, your pool is still not as large as the white guy of the same level. Blame the media or whatsoever. You have to work at least three times harder than the white or even black guys @Whitewashed Banana is very correct on this. I mean being together with an China lover or those who have cultural fantasies about China is not a real thing. The challenge is to get any top quality western (both look, intelligence and awareness) women…this is still need some work. I mean the crippled Chinese modern culture is not going to be your proved gun to use: it sucks the big time. It is like impotency. It is asexual. Being sexual and alfa has never been a territory for Chinese guys. It is easy to say that it is all about confidence, but you need to build a record: conquring as many top quality western women as possible to get this “afirmed confidence” for western females. It may take one year or even 10 years. Good things come with a high cost;)

  74. Tell me something here . How can we have 1.3 billion Chinese when we’re ASEXUAL. Seriously, this is not about conquering western women or ASian women period!! You guys get all the wrong ideas here. Do you have to date western women in order to make a statement in this world? Can you just see women as people and not like trophies?Do you know managing a relationship with a woman regardless of race is extremely difficult???When you find a SPECIAL WOMAN OR MAN, you just know it. She doesn’t have to be 100% WHITE. She can come from your own race. The goal is to have a happy life.

  75. As a white chick engaged to a Chinese guy, the thing that hurts Chinese guys the most is not physical stature. It is the lack of “owning” who you are. Most people buy into the Western model of tall, dark buff male and the helpless woman. And it can cause a crisis of confidence if you don’t fall into those categories.

    Most guys are worried about being effeminate but that’s only 1/2 the story. If you are confident in who you are, it will cover a multitude of imperfections.

    The thing that attracted me most to my fiance is that he is who he is and he knows who he is. And he doesn’t apologize for it. I had to go through a lot in being a white chick who is interested in Chinese culture (and men). There was a lot of questioning of who I am and what I add to an interracial relationship (and which pieces of each culture should we keep). If you are signaling that I will have to help you through that process, you are begging the girl to move on to the next guy who knows who he is.

    Trust me, there are plenty of girls who will be interested in your level of Chineseness. But please do not ask that girl to help you through your racial identity crisis.

  76. People are attracted to your values and that applies to WMAW couples also!Westerners know that you’re Asian/Chinese already.Do they have to go to school to know that? I hang out and have cook out with my neighbors who are Whites. We were talking about values and respects that nowadays kids and adults don’t have! If you have bad adults , you won’t have good kids. We need adults to teach kids on family values. I’m sure Western women look for Asian men for the right reasons like Western men do. Tall , dark and handsome is a great model but if you have a long back and lazy like hell. who want you for the long run? I want every Chinese men out there to know that just be yourselves and change your attitudes and views of life slowly to blend in with these new world and societies!!!!!!!!

  77. If you want to change how Chinese men think and look , you need to change Chinese women ,too. Why ? I will tell you why . Chinese women tend to like Chinese men to look and act in certain ways. “Majority” of Chinese women don’t like Chinese men to be too masculine , too muscular . Years ago, I knew a few Chinese women and they said ” don’t be too muscular , don’t waste so much time in the gym”. Some Chinese women like it and some don’t. Most of the Asian women I knew love it. It’s hard to change a culture . In America, the culture of sports is huge. Some professional players use steriod and HGH for performance. In China, you don’t have a culture for sports. In addition to what I’ve mentioned, you need to change the diet and the foods in China. Diet will make your kids bigger and taller. You can point fingers on Chinese men only. What about the Chinese women and the culture?

  78. You know, I never thought that Asian men were effeminate. I don’t remember anyone I know saying so either. So I don’t know what everyone is talking about but I think I understand by the whole “we” thinking. Whenever on the occasion that my boyfriend disagrees with me and (imho) is afraid I will get annoyed with him, he says something like, “This is my Chinese way of thinking.” Maybe he’s right, that is how most Chinese are but at the same time, it really does get under my skin because I don’t care what “China” thinks. You know and I get that he says it so that I understand that that’s the way he was raised to believe but it makes me feel like he’s actually saying, this is what we believe, “Unlike you Westerner’s”. So I tend feel like he’s actually stereotyping me. Because not all Western people think the same, similar maybe, but not the same and Asian people are not the “Borg” so even if they are collective or w/e, many do think for themselves. Bringing me to my next topic, the whole “we” mentality makes me feel like he’s not thinking for himself even though I know better. It’s like when someone says, “If you wear that dress, people are going to think you’re a slut.” It almost always means, “Don’t wear that dress, I think it makes you look like a slut.” I hope I didn’t offend anyone (and please no white Westerner comments, I’m not white…or black, if that’s your next choice).

    Back to the masculine vs feminine thing. The way the men are raised, being a family man and such, has always been very masculine to me. I would take that over some guy who’s ripped and acts like a player. But as a girl, it’d be great to have a little romance as well but all in all, I’d rather have someone who be there, rather than a guy with nothing but sweet words and chocolates to offer.

    But I was kind of raised that romantic and sweet guys are effeminate and so reading a comment above that said that masculine Western men do such things made me wonder where he/she’s from. lol

  79. In real life, I always talk with my Asian / Chinese male friends on character of a person , a person’s principle and your confidence in a relationship or in everyday life situations. As a man, I like to please and compromise with my woman , but I won’t compromise too much that she can step all over me. I have my principles and intergrity also. When I go over the line, my woman will let me know also and I have to work around it. The idea is to please each other back and forth and be united as one family. A few Chinese men (head of the households) that I know won’t move an inch for their wives, so their wives have to work around things. In return, these Chinese men will let their wives control the bank accounts and some business transactions but the men make major decisions only. Other Chinese men I know personally are very loved sick and faithful men. Once, they like/love you, they won’t let go. IT’s like a big bass biting on a lure. Just won’t let go. Do you guys know that I admire Chinese people ( men/women) is that we are very driven people. There are other bad things we can work on like any other men in the world! You people will be amazed on what some Chinese men can do out there even though they don’t look muscular/masculine.

  80. Another funny subject that we used to talk about once in while and that was ” Jack of all trades”. We used to joke around with other Chinese male friends that in order to be a true Asian man you have to be able to do many tasks like :#1 can hold a wok ( can cook) #2 can hold a pen ( work in a professional field) #3 can hold a hammer ( build something or repair something) #4 can handle a 90lbs jackhammer ( can tolerater hard labor) #5 can grab ass ( satisfy your woman sexually 🙂 ). Other wives will compare husbands with different men so we like to joke around. 🙂

  81. “Personally, I find it a little weird that she’s your fiancee — supposedly committed to marrying you — and yet she threatens to leave if you don’t shape up. Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is, do you want to spend the rest of your life with her?”

    (i’m White female with Chinese boyfriend that has been here 5 years)
    This statement said it all.. too Chinese?? what?!?!
    WTH does too Chinese mean?

    That’s like if my boyfriend said .. hey .. you are to white..

    Give me a break she either likes you for who you are or doesn’t. Sure little things that you have problems with each other can be worked on but I’m not sure what she means by too Chinese this doesn’t sound good at all. You ARE Chinese Did she miss that memo when she started dating you?

  82. Like I said before that you have to totally accept him/her
    In order to really love a person. If my wife is from different country like Germany, I have to accept everything about her.If she is from Japan, I have to adjust to her thinkings also. If you can not accept your differences, you will have a hard time accepting your own race also. I don’t care what you guys say here but you must accept a person completely for any relationship to work. Yup, loving a person is hard work. Let’s Don’t talk about amwf etc. Just talk about Chinese man and chinese woman relationship, they have to accept each other too.

  83. orthopedic heel inserts,
    Jocelyn deserves all the credit on her blog. I’m just an “average “person showing my support and not standing on the sideline observing and waiting.

  84. I have many white friends too, but they are all awkward Chumlee lookalikes. They have a hard time dating any females because they are all clad in T-shirt with sayings like “chick magnet” or “certified muff diver”. By the way, you look like Chumlee at 220 lb or are you really 6’5″ and 220lb?

    Your definition of the world is solely confined to the US or at best English speaking countries. Europe (continental, not including Britain) has a different standard for masculinity and South American people are more affable than Anglo-Saxon. It’s not uncommon to see men kiss each other on the face in South America. These characteristics are not considered effeminate in that part of the world.

    I suppose you need to travel more, especially to other parts of the Western world. Otherwise, shut your mouth about the Western world.

    Also, you don’t look Anglo at all. What ethnicity are you?

  85. Another anonymous, insecure Chinese person who attacks me instead of my observations. Welcome!

    I have dual citizenship, US & EU. I’d be surprised if you’ve traveled more than I have, but if you have, congratulations to you.

  86. Charlie is Charisma Man in Chengdu. After years of economic stagnation, Japan is no longer able to offer attractive compensations to egotistical English speaking Anglo-Saxon expats. Therefore these Charisma Men (or Women) seek elsewhere for their next goldmines. China is the next big thing to them. However, rapid inflation drives living costs sky high in metropolises, such as Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing. So they look inland and settle in Chengdu.

    Let’s see how long their charisma will last in this rising metropolis. When the living standard rises and their employers refuse to fatten the compensation, where else could they go? Inner Mongolia?

    Read more about Charisma Man here.

  87. I realize that what I’ve said has earth-shattering implications for your ego. If venting your anger by being spiteful and unkind to strangers will help you deal with it, go ahead and make up whatever story you’d like about me.

  88. You should be surprised, little Charlie. I have lived altogether in Europe, the US, Canada and Asia for over 20 plus years. I am a seasoned Chinese expat, very knowledgeable about the Western world and other part called ROW (rest of the world). My citizenship include the US, Canada, Chile, Hong Kong, China, Singapore and Kenya (acquired through investment, or bribe as called by jealous Anglo).

  89. What the hell are you doing in front of the computer on a Saturday night in China? Don’t you have dates with Chinese women? LOL

  90. Although I am Chinese myself (residing in Australia) I sadly must agree with Charlie. It’s sad and unfortunate, but we have to admit what it is as what it is… no sugar coating just be honest.

    Alot of Chinese men in China is well below the masculine level (at least by western standard). I get sick and tired seeing Chinese men acting like sissy, carrying women purse, carrying MAN handbag (I’m not joking!!!), have funky sissy looking hair that can pass him as a woman, being so skinny looking like female runaway model, dress up sooooo metro making themselves looking so gaaay, etc etc…

    The problem is the average Chinese men in China DO NOT realize how gay and sissy they look to the outside world, unless they have the opportunity to live in the west for an extended period of time like I have.

    Things are not going to change anytime soon and Chinese women will increasingly be attracted more and more towards western men unless Chinese men stop worrying about money 24/7 and start caring about their projected image to the outside world.

  91. I think she means maybe too old fashioned. With old fashioned attitudes comes certain negative stances on subjects such as gender roles, body image, racism, sexism and family values. I remember one ex boyfriend told me he liked me because I was ‘quiet, timid and shy, that’s how all girls should be’. I was pretty offended at this backhanded compliment because I come from a very Westernised, modern and feminist background where the girls are often crazier and more outgoing than the boys, I’m just a little more introverted! I asked what he meant and said that he ‘Didn’t like talkative or open girls. They are only good for sex.’ Needless to say we broke up soon after that comment! He didn’t know how to respect women. Another Chinese boyfriend refused to wash up, do laundry, take out the trash, because these were ‘women’s jobs’. Since he was the one who made the most money he thought he was the boss of the house. The sex was bad and utterly selfish. He would also make comments about my female friends, especially the ones who were dark skinned or mixed race. He could have been just a jerk but I’m pretty sure his unexposed, overly-traditional Chinese background and Tiger mom had something to do with it. A lot of them made comments about my weight and appearance, too. They think that because they are men, they are better than you. I can see the superiority complex and dominance in their eyes.

  92. In China, as well as many parts of the world, lighter skin means more femininity. It has to do with ancient times where a man works out in the fields and get tanned and dark and a woman stays indoors. The one thing I noticed about Caucasian people’s skin is not only do they have much lighter skin than the Chinese, but they have that radiant “estrogen glow” to the skin. There are Chinese people with pale skin but never the estrogen glow and certainly never with the rosy, pink undertone that westerners have.

  93. I have to side with lipli on this one. She is right about what you need to do. Keep in mind it is not easy for your girl either.

    If she says it out of frustration, find out why. If she is not sure about the relationship, work it out or end it for both of you to move on.
    Perception is the reality unless proven wrong. Charlie is honest about this. I’ve seen plenty of Chinese men in China can go quite low. If these are the reasons of negative opinions, you can talk about it with your girl.
    Chinese men in China and the ones in the west are not the same either. It is common challenge to find healthy identity and assimilate at the same time. Same challenge to any immigrant.

    You want to work this out before getting married.

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