Things I’ve Learned from My Chinese Husband: Asia Is Not That United

(Photo by U.S. Army via
(Photo by U.S. Army via

Years ago, a fellow blogger with a Chinese husband wrote to me, “I follow some blogs by Western women married to Japanese men. You’d probably like them too.” It was the kind of friendly recommendation that you often get from other bloggers – except it came with a warning. “But shhh, don’t tell our husbands!”

Why did a suggestion to read someone’s blog suddenly get slapped with a cautionary note, as if all blogs written by Western women with Japanese husbands might be hazardous to our health? Simple. Like most Chinese men, her husband didn’t care for Japan – and neither did mine:

“Japan? I never want to visit Japan,”[John] hissed. “I’m anti-Japanese.” He launched into a brief history of Japanese aggression in China, from the first territorial swipes at China during the Sino-Japanese War, to the Second Sino-Japanese War, with Holocaust-like atrocities that Japan had yet to acknowledge publicly.

Yes, my marriage to a Chinese man has taught me a valuable lesson — that Asia is not the great, united, happy family (as some Americans might believe). That “Asians” don’t necessarily like being lumped together.

I didn’t realize the extent to our cultural amnesia about the true state of affairs in Asia until I met and married a man from China. A self-proclaimed “military fan” whose interest went deeper than tanks, submarines and aircraft carriers. A husband who schooled me in the many disagreements, wars and massacres between China and its Asian neighbors.

I’ve learned that Japan has yet to fully acknowledge the “Asian holocaust” it perpetrated against China and others, from the gruesome horrors of Unit 731 to the “comfort women” forced into prostitution. I’ve learned of the skirmish between Vietnam and China that led to a short war. I’ve learned about the border disputes between China and India, serious enough to lead my Lonely Planet guidebooks to print “The external boundaries of India on this map have not been authenticated and may not be correct” on their maps. And now I’ve learned everything there is to know about the emerging military alliance between Japan and the Philippines, especially how it affects China.

In America, we speak of “Asian” cuisine like it’s all the same – as if you could substitute one country for another – never realizing the countries here wouldn’t agree. That the Thai restaurant down the street from my father’s home serving Chinese delicacies alongside a sushi menu would look totally blasphemous to people in China, who still haven’t forgotten what Japan did to them.

I’m reminded of what Alex Tizon wrote about in his memoir Big Little Man:

As a journalist in my twenties and thirties, I wrote extensively about these [Asian] communities. No surprise, I found each group exuberantly complex and instinct, and perceiving themselves as separate from — and often antipathetic to — other Asian ethnicities. The parents and grandparents clove to their countrymen, the Vietnamese with other Vietnamese, Koreans with Koreans, Cambodians with Cambodians.

It was the children and grandchildren, the ones growing up in America, who would find — or be coerced into — common ground. Years of checking “Asian” on countless forms, of being subjected to the same epithets and compliments, of living in the same neighborhoods and housing projects, and sharing similar challenges and aspirations — the most important to become Americanized — all of these would compel young Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Filipinos to accept their belonging to the category known as Asians.

Perhaps the most unifying force was the perception that everyday Americans saw them as the same, and what made them the same was their “racial uniform,” to use a term coined by sociologist Robert Park. The uniform was thought to consist of a certain eye and nose shape, hair and skin color, and body type, usually shorter and skinnier — identifiers of the Yellow or Mongoloid or Oriental and finally now the Asian race.

…We Asians were now in the same boat. Our uniform did not lie. Like Lisa said on the Grand Concourse: Japanese, Chinese, Filipino — same thing!

Yep, this is what happened in America – we just clustered everything from Asia together, and assumed that it was one great unified map. Never realizing that it was one great lie.

Asia isn’t that great, united land where countries always peacefully coexist. But that doesn’t mean friendships don’t happen to cross unlikely borders. After all, even if he still dislikes Japan’s government, my husband has actually changed his feelings towards the country as a whole. He has Japanese friends. Still, there is one thing though:

“So, does this mean I can buy you a Toshiba someday?” I prodded him, with a grin.

“Not really. I still have standards, you know,” he smiled.

Hmmm. Best not to tell his new Japanese friends.

113 Replies to “Things I’ve Learned from My Chinese Husband: Asia Is Not That United”

  1. When I told my little sister (who visited South Korea recently) that “Asia” was one big minefield that could blow up any day now, she could hardly believe it. Then I took her to the Wednesday comfort women demonstration in front of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul and she started to understand (and feel) the tension…

    Thanks for this post. It reminded me of how I too was “educated” by my husband about historical and political issues…!

  2. “Territorial swipes” at China by Japan in the Sino-Japanese wars is slightly unfair: one of the territories Japan got from that was Taiwan, and two things stand out:

    1.) Taiwanese, whose families had largely lived in Taiwan for so long that they no longer had roots in China, weren’t entirely happy with Qing rule: first because China claimed Taiwan as a territory but did little for it – for example, Taiwan had a serious pirate problem, and sent emissaries to the Qing court…and the government said, basically, “we can’t help you with that”. So the Taiwanese were not that satisfied with their “rulers” in China and were thinking about independence even then.

    2.) Because of this, a lot of Taiwanese – correctly in my estimation – at the time and now see Taiwan as something claimed by China up until 1895 but not actually ruled by China: Chinese in name only, on the maps but not in reality.

    3.) When the Chinese left in 1895, before the Japanese came, Taiwan was actually independent from May-October 1895. So it’s not like they were peacefully happy to just be ruled by whomever cared to take them over.

    4.) China likes to talk about its “5000 years of culture”, but Taiwan was only Chinese for about 200 years, and for most of that was barely controlled by China, if really at all beyond being a blob on a map for them. So China likes to think it’s this outrage that Japan took a territory from them that they’d held ‘since antiquity’, when they had actually not really held it that strongly ever, and only for a few centuries. Until the 1400s-1600s, Taiwan didn’t even have a majority Chinese population: it was mostly aboriginal.

    5.) China likes to act as though this was some sort of atrocity committed against Taiwan, but if you ask Taiwanese, most (not all, for sure, but most) are much more positively disposed to Japan than China. Most understand that although colonialism is obviously wrong as we understand it in modern society, that under Japanese rule Taiwan was one of the most economically prosperous territories in Asia, not a “poor backwater” as China and China’s allies in Taiwan paint it as. Although initial resistance to Japanese rule in Taiwan was fierce, especially among aborigines, many Taiwanese feel – correctly again in my estimation although it’s only an opinion – that they were better off having been ceded to Japan than had they remained on China’s territorial maps.

    6.) In modern times, this translates into Taiwan being more or less the only country that doesn’t dislike Japan – which sets it even further apart from China as a distinct cultural and historical entity. It also translates into identifying more strongly with Japan than China in terms of being a developed/first world democracy with civil liberties and respect for human rights – things Chinese do not currently enjoy (but I hope they will, soon. The sooner the better).

    So while I completely understand the reasons behind Chinese dislike of Japan vis-a-vis the Rape of Nanjing/the genocide perpetrated by Japan, comfort women etc., I’m not on board with “territorial swipes” being a reason for complaint.

    Seeing as at least one of those territories – Taiwan – isn’t interested at all in being annexed by China. The KMT may be, but they’re on the way out and the public generally speaking wants nothing to do with it. China may consider Taiwan its “territory” but when 60%+ of Taiwanese don’t identify as Chinese, and 90%+ identify as Taiwanese primarily and Chinese secondarily if at all, that’s just not…right.

    If you consider Taiwanese to be Chinese ethnically (which they are), you can’t even say all Chinese hate Japan – because the Taiwanese don’t!

    And if you were to ask the average foreign woman with a Taiwanese husband what he thinks about “Asia”, he’d be more likely to consider Japan “friendly, a great place, good people”, and China to be “terrible, not somewhere he’d ever want to live, and the tourists who visit Taiwan from China don’t understand our different etiquette and don’t respect us”.

    1. I have many relatives in ROC (Taiwan) who think they are Chinese and don’t want independence! And I have friends from the ruling party in Taiwan now and they also don’t want independence!

  3. In fact, I’m now thinking about a friend of mine whose ex-husband is Tibetan. Technically a part of China (on maps but not in the hearts of Tibetans – any Tibetans really) but he certainly was no fan of China! I gather you’d hear a similar sentiment from an Uighur.

  4. I suppose it shouldn’t surprise me that there are Americans who lump all Asians together. Yet on the coasts of America — especially the West Coast — I’ve never heard anyone lump “Asian food” together. Even if you’re not a foodie, you know the difference between sushi, kung pao chicken, and Korean BBQ. LA has Chinatown, Koreatown, Thai Town, and my neighborhood has Daiso and Marukai.

    I suppose you could remain ignorant, but seriously, it would take a lot of work!

    I agree that the Asian friends/ boyfriends do quite a bit of education, though, especially about WWII. Back in college, I was worried about the Korea-American boyfriend’s parents being okay with the white girlfriend. The boyfriend assured me that the only thing his grandmother would flip out over was a Japanese girlfriend. (His grandmother had lived through the Japanese invasion and atrocities in WWII. She still had some hideous stories of Korean girls being nailed to telephone booths.)

    That was the first time I had heard of any Japanese atrocities in WWII. The US Government offered amnesty to many Japanese and deliberate buried those stories during its Japanese “Nation Building” period. You have to be a history major and do some hunting if you want to find them, though it’s now a lot easier with the internet.

  5. I’m all about the independence of Taiwan because it’s what the Taiwanese people want (the status quo, or de facto independence, is a form of independence and most hope that it will lead to de jure independence, not annexation). If the tide of public opinion opposed it I’d probably be much quieter. They can decide for themselves, and they have. I support that.

    But my point is more that historically speaking, the “territorial swipes” claim from China against Japan have little merit. China wasn’t doing a good job of governing territory it barely controlled, in which the people were not happy with Chinese rule. So why not save the complaints against Japan for actual atrocities, such as what they did in Nanjing, what they did to women, etc. and accept that the Taiwanese are not on board with China’s territorial vision or weird version of history?

    1. Again, talking about things you don’t know! And not surprise because you have brainwash yourself into believing it!

  6. I think it is common to lump people in groups, especially when they are geographically far away. While Chinese people may be slightly more educated about Western history and culture than I once was about Eastern, they still manage to make assumptions on Westerners all looking or thinking a particular way.

    Within Asia there are a lot of disputes and disunity, but also within many countries themselves. While people may look similar, that doesn’t mean they are similar. They are of different languages, ethnicities, and/or religions. If you know little about a particular region, it’s easy to assume everyone is more-or-less the same, but that couldn’t be further from the truth.

  7. @Jenna,

    Why would you be quieter about your views if the Taiwanese opposed outright independence? It is, after all, about what the Taiwanese want, so why would you not support them as you support them now?

    If you regard Japan’s annexation of Taiwan from China as (somewhat) justified by Qing China’s poor governance of the island, do you think China or anyone else for that matter would be equally justified to annex the Ryukyu islands given the discontent that Okinawans have with the Tokyo government?

    I’ve come across many foreigners expressing their views in support of Taiwanese independence (and here I note that it’s almost always white foreigners from English-speaking countries that are vocal about it) but I don’t think I’ve ever come across one who is as fanatical about it as you are. Anyway, I just have two points to make here.

    First, the unhappiness with the Qing rule that you refer to stems from the fact that Taiwan was the base of Ming resistance and remnants of Ming loyalists persisted on the island for some time after the Qing takeover of China. This is also largely the reason why the Qing government was reluctant to develop the island and provide it with much substantial assistance. Therefore, the discontent of the Taiwanese people under Qing China would be more correctly viewed in the context of a civil war — one in which the parties involved were both Chinese.

    Second, although the Taiwanese value their comparative freedom and democratic rights vis-a-vis China, they’re not ideological about it the way Westerners are and they certainly don’t regard them as fundamental differences that prevent them from establishing close links with the Chinese people. Yes, we like Japan and the Japanese people and we are often contemptuous of the Mainland Chinese, but at the end of the day we feel closer to the Chinese people and we instinctively understand that the “uncivilised” behaviour displayed by them is just a phase because we ourselves were going through it not long ago.

    Like I’ve said before, every time I come across a foreigner advocating Taiwanese independence I lose a little of my own enthusiasm for it.

    1. Just to be clear, by “the discontent that Okinawans have with the Tokyo government” I was referring to Japan’s national government in Tokyo.

    2. Reading Jenna Cody’s comments reminded me of what Abe Lincoln said many, many years ago l o l !

      “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt”.

      For your information. I don’t support independence for Taiwan. Taiwan is a part of China and it shall remain so indefinitely.

    3. Hi Alex, are you Taiwanese? The way your last name is spelt suggests to me that you are.

      Indefinitely is a long time and the reality is that the younger generation of Taiwanese people in particular is keen to forge a separate identity. It’s also worth noting that the traditional lines of division between 本省人 (Benshengren) and 外省人 (Waishengren) have blurred over the years and this is reflected in the political aspiration for an independent Taiwan in a growing number of 外省人.

      In any case, my personal view is that it would be better for Taiwan to be independent, but I’m by no means anti-Chinese. Ideally, China and Taiwan would have a close relationship — as independent political entities — not unlike that between the US and Canada, or Australia and New Zealand. Or perhaps China and Taiwan could become part of a federation of states.

      1. D Maybe

        Hi, sorry for being so late. No I m not Taiwanese. I m an ethnic Chinese in Malaysia.

        Taiwan being independent from China is a no go. But there is a solution for the Taiwanese people, one I hear a lot from the Mainland Chinese. It goes like this.

        “We never said we want the Taiwanese people back. We only want the island, the land. The Taiwanese people, if they want to stay, they are free to do so. But if not, they can always go somewhere else. We are only interested in getting the island back, not it’s people.”


    4. Excellent post overall. Regarding the “uncivilized” Mainland tourists part, people disregard or overlook a few important things:

      1. Majority of them just recently moved up to middle class status and are traveling overseas for the first time. I believe when most Americans began doing the same a few decades ago, they exhibited similar behaviors (Ugly Americans).

      2. You hear about incidents of Mainland tourists more often, because of modern techs that can capture and broadcast them instantly (e.g. smart phones, social media, etc) to the world. Didn’t have these for Ugly American incidents back then, so only those people who witnessed them know about them.

      3. These “uncivilized” incidents are very low, as a percentage of total Mainland tourists. Western medias tend to sensationalize them, as China-bashing is almost like a national sport.

    5. Exactly, Taiwan owe mainland China a lot of money! When the Kuomingtang (Chinese nationalist party) lost the civil war to the Chinese communist, they took all the Gold reserve from Chinese Treasury along with the most of the valuable antique. These things belong to the Chinese people!

      Even Kuomintang is the not the ruling party in Taiwan anymore but all people in Taiwan have enjoyed economic growth all these years form the money Kuomingtang took from mainland China, with out this gold from the Chinese Treasury, Taiwan will not grew so fast! And you cant deny this!

      So, if Taiwan want to be independent then pay back all the things in today’s currency and they can go free anytime!

  8. Coming to Asia really made me appreciate the EU much more, and what it accomplished since WW2 (and that’s also why I don’t quite get that some people in Europe think going it alone again will be better); For me it’s unthinkable that governments behave like they do here in Asia, where they still nurture petty and ancient grievances instead of working together. It just seems there’s a lot of pride, “face” and populism involved that prevents them all from finally moving ahead. Asia really need some statesmen of the caliber of Mitterrand or Brandt to overcome its past.

    1. Don’t worry, you will appreciate much better when PIIGS nations knocks your door and awaken from your sweet dreaming.

      1. Rdm…what is PIIGS nations…not the UK is it? There they definitely dont like the Polish, Ukraininans, Bulgarians, Romanians etc all of whom look white…now that they have slowed non-white migration to a trickle. In fact the one group the English really dont like are the Latvians..and they are whiter than the English.

    2. @robert – A united Europe (EU) is like China, since EU is essentially what the Roman Empire would’ve been had it not disintegrated. Asia is 10x more complicated than Europe. Mitterrand or Brandt would make it in Europe, but not in Asia.

  9. It is quite scary that this “anti-Japan” feeling is encouraged by the government. Remember the protests against Japan a couple of years ago because of the Diaoyu islands issue? I saw pictures of huge demonstrations in Chinese cities. It was on a weekday. Did everybody get a day off and a free ride to the city center, or what was that? And the disturbs, in Suzhou a street full of Japanese restaurants was completely destroyed. Where was the police? They surely act fast in other instances.

    We were also aghast one day we took C.’s ex-wife’s son to a park where there are flags of many countries. We were playing “name the country” and when he saw the Japanese flag he said “I hate Japan”. Where does a 7 year old learn that? Most probably in school! Way to go, preaching hate since primary school… Do French or Polish teachers teach German hate in class?

    Once a guy in Beijing told me that he was sure Japan was preparing to attack China again and that all Japanese people are evil and cruel by nature. An educated guy on his 20s. I think they are definitely going too far.

    Luckily my bf doesn’t have anything against Japan. We will probably visit it next year.

    1. The same as when Uncle Sam put all Japanese Americans into internment camp. Did White Americans try to push Uncle Sam back to insanity? Or it’s just another form of “Containment” when it comes to “Convenience”?

      I’m not talking about White Vs Asian.

      I’m just pointing out that when it comes to racial unity, all government do the same, stroking prejudice against other racial groups. That’s human nature.

      But I agreed on that some Chinese I came across, might I also add that some Koreans, are really deep into anti-Japanese sentiment to the extent that they do look like government puppets.

      1. Rdm…what is common between, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans…they all love the whites and at least mildly (at the minimum) dislike each other….so the “Asians” do have something in common. Similarly whites may not like each other…Brit may not like Greek, Greek may not like Germans, but they all hate the non-white immigrants.

        1. @David – They don’t like the whites b/c of the color. They like economic status. Europe = the most economically developed continent on Earth. Vast majority of white countries are developed. On the other end, vast majority of black countries are under-developed.
          Having said that…If you are rich, you can be dark as night and you would have a good chance of being liked. If you are poor, you can be white as Casper the Friendly Ghost and it would do you no good.

    2. Go to the southern US, you will hear white school children openly say that they hate the blacks…I guess you were too young to be around during the English politician Enoch Powell’s River of Blood Speech on April 20, 1968. Overnight friendships built over generations between non-whites and whites were lost, and white English school children said the same thing about Asians (South Asians) and blacks…heck they say the same thing today after fifty years…so I guess it is human nature.

      1. David, but do you think the hate between China and Japan is racism? I don’t think so. Based on what I hear from people, it basically comes from the atrocities the Japanese did 70-80 years ago… and yes, it was horrible, but how can you blame the children and grandchildren of those people?

        Sometimes I think this hate against Japan is used in China the same way soccer is used in Spain… to distract people from real problems. (It is even said that it was arranged that Spain would win the 2010 soccer world cup so Spanish people would forget about the crisis for a few days).

        1. I do think it’s racism because many Chinese people hate the entire country of Japan and its residents indiscriminately. I can understand the hatred for those who committed the crimes and also for the government for how it’s handled the issue, but hatred toward an entire race of people? I agree that it is propagated and a means to distract people from other (national) issues.

          1. Well, maybe my problem is purely linguistical then… I wouldn’t call it racism because… is Japanese a race? I would think it is a nationality and an ethnicity, but not a race :/ I would call it xenophobia towards Japanese then.

  10. Its true that Asia isnt as united in terms of their current political positions. Having said that, calling it a landmine shows a very naive understanding of the complex relations among asian nations. India and China have grunted over border disputes for decades but have massively impacted each others cultures a for over a millenium. It gets even murkier when you venture into the China-Japan-Korea territory. The wars, big and small happen under the backdrop of nations that share similar festivals and align with each other over their dislike for others (Japanese and Chinese dont like that the Koreans have patented the chinese new year; korean and chinese relate to the horrors of Japanese war; Japan and Korea have a greater alignment with west and are similar in their development compared to China). Asian relations arent as simple as: they get along/ they hate each other. The very concept of conflict isnt that simple in Asia. It isnt like the west where you dont agree with the ideology/ religion of nation, then proceed to declare that nation rogue and attack it. The countries fight very much with the deep ties binding them together in place. This reflects in the relationship chinese share with Japanese culture for instance.

    1. SBC…I doubt Indians have anywhere closer to the animosity that they have towards the Pakistanis as far as attitudes towards the Chinese are concerned…they really dont like the Pakistanis.

  11. Followed up on SBC is,

    While naive Westerners tend to bash China for Diaoyu/Senkaku island disputes, hugely accounted for American-led news media outlet, they have no idea of Dokdo/Takeshima island dispute between Korea and Japan.

    Those islands dispute is as complicated as why Falkland island is a part of British rule rather than nearest Argentina country.

    Regarding Dokdo/Takeshima island dispute, Japan claim its sovereignty over the island while Korea controls it. Japan submitted to ICJ to resolve the dispute “3” times, while Korea rejected the court issue completely for “3” times.

    Now let’s turn our head to Diaoyu/Senkaku island. Japan controls the island while China claim its sovereignty over the island. China offered to resolve the dispute at ICJ while Japan refused to abide by ICJ ruling.

    But international sentiment towards China is not because of those tiny islands dispute, but because (— you fill in your own thought —)

  12. It’s also kind of rich for Chinese to complain that they hate Japan for “territorial swipes” when China has generally been a massive territorial swiper in Asia, and gets all butthurt when anyone criticizes their territorial swipes (at the Senkakus, yes, but also at Tibet, Xinjiang, India, Mongolia, arguably Vietnam). People in areas currently controlled by China (Tibet, Xinjiang) are not even happy with Chinese dictatorship.

    People in glass houses…

    Being angry at Japan for other reasons (mass murder) is justified. But not for “territorial” reasons.

    Having lived in Asia for most of my adult life and read up generally on the Senkakus, I still think they are rightfully Japan’s. But I don’t quite care enough to make an argument over it. Governments turn these things into huge deals, but it’s just not something I care about much. China, Japan, Korea, even Taiwan (though I think Taiwan’s just in on it because if the PRC claims something the ROC has to claim it too because the government is made up of weaklings who fear that China will insist that not doing so constitutes a declaration of independence) want you to get all worked up over the Senkakus…but they’re not really relevant to most people’s lives. They’re strategically important, but that doesn’t impress me. Why play into government hands like that and hate another group over a few islands you will never even visit?

    1. Would China be equally justified to swipe the Ryukyu islands from Japan, especially given the way the islands were acquired by Japan in the first place? What about Hokkaido? The Japanese would have no right to complain, right?

      And why stop your defence of Japan at mass murder? China has committed mass murder too, especially against its own people, so China should have no right to complain about things like the Rape of Nanking, right?

      And if the US ever has the misfortune of having its territory taken from it or has mass murder committed against its people, I hope you’ll remember not to complain.

  13. Only thing uniting “Asians” (to include everyone from Samoa to Pakistan) in America, Australia and to some extent Canada is white people. Let a white person try out a Kimono, all “Asians” will show up saying that it is cultural appropriation, at least here in the US….

    You will suddenly have all the Chinese who hated the Japanese suddenly become “Asian” in their battle against white people. Let Emma Stone become Chinese in the movie Aloha, you will here the “Asians” hiss and scream..common purpose…white people practicing yellow face.

    After that they will go their separate ways. A Chinese American family had two daughters. Back in the 1980s one married a white American guy and the other married a Japanese-American guy…the family loves the daughter who married the white guy and basically disowned the daughter who married the Japanese-American…their children actually grew up without meeting either grand parents..of course they lived most of their lives in Africa with their parents doing some mission work.

    Then again whites had these issues before migrating to the US…Margret Mitchell’s grandparents migrated to Atlanta in the 1820s. In the late 1700s their parents were on the opposite side of the Catholic-Protestant strife in Ireland and actually the two families fought each other. The grandmother’s side of the family were diehard catholics while the grandfather’s side were diehard protestants. But, all was forgotten when they landed in Atlanta..united by a common cause…to own black slaves and make millions in the process and common fear…the fear of black slave revolt…Denmark Vessey…so they simply forgot the hatred and simply became white or later on their descendants will become the confederate flag waving southern whites…united by the contempt for black people!

  14. “We were playing “name the country” and when he saw the Japanese flag he said “I hate Japan”. Where does a 7 year old learn that?”

    Marta: The same place the white American girl who tweeted the same thing after the US beat Japan in the women’s world cup soccer. At home, where they probably do not like any non-white people, and probably support Donald Trump or Scott Walker in the primaries.

  15. “when China has generally been a massive territorial swiper in Asia and gets all butthurt when anyone criticizes their territorial swipes (at the Senkakus, yes, but also at Tibet, Xinjiang, India, Mongolia, arguably Vietnam).”

    This is pure ignorance. The reality is the exact opposite. China has settled peacefully more territorial disputes than anyone and it has done so relinquishing more than half of its claimed territories to the other side in a majority of cases.

    “In just over 60 years, China has gone from 23 land disputes down to just six. In the majority of its settlements, China accepted less than one-half of the territory it originally claimed.”

    In the cases of Tibet, Tibet is a part of China and it has been so according to international law and even according to the “Tibet Government in Exile”.

    In the case of India, it was India that attacked China and tried to steal land away from China.

    This individual, “jenna cody” is really divisive. She posts all this political bull**** on posts not really relevant trying to stir up controversy.

    Notice that she never brings up the atrocities of her own government. Just tries to hijack threads to bash China.

    She never mentions that the US has invaded more countries in the last 50 years than any other country. She never mentions that it has killed more people in foreign invasions than the rest of the world combined (using her tax dollars and initiated by politicians she probably voted into office). She never mentions that it has more people incarcerated than any country. That its police kill more people than any country. That it has more people in solitary confinement than any country. She only wants to bash China using her ill informed views. I have to wonder if someone is paying her to spew this nonsense or if she is just that brainwashed by US propaganda.

  16. Sorry Misanthrope.

    Tell the Tibetans and the Uighurs that. Or the Taiwanese, whose country China is currently attempting to annex. Or the Indians, who fought wars with China over territory.

    And the post references why Chinese aren’t buddy-buddy with Japanese generally speaking, on a political level. So my comments aren’t off-topic. Politics are a part of this post, so referencing them in the comments is legitimate.

    I’m thinkin’ you’re just butthurt because I dared to question China’s territorial expansionist bull****. China is not a peaceful country.

    I’d say you are trying to push a pro-Beijing agenda online, like a fifty-cent troll.

    1. oh rich , a white woman telling asian people and asian countries what she thinks of them. Go look at your own damn country before you make claims that have no standing.

    2. Are you serious Jenna?
      How many Tibetans have you met? I won’t speak for the Uighurs since I don’t know their history very well (but even then, the ethnic Uighurs I met in China had no such strong opinions as you put, at least not stronger or worse than what the common Han Chinese thought about the government), but Tibet. My oh my oh my.
      Do you even know its history?
      If you do, then you should know very well what sort of messed up society it was before its liberation, right? I always believed that religion and government should not mix together, but in Tibet back then, it was. Who was in power? The royals, nobles and the Lamas. They were the elite of society and they treated the common citizens like sh*t. It was the kind of backward society that practiced serfdom. The common people had it very bad, they were heavily oppressed and brutalized by the elites.
      When the PRC intervened, they literally abolished serfdom and set the slaves free. However, it also meant that the elites would also no longer have their privileges. That did not sit well them, at that time due to the USA’s extreme anti-communism sentiment, they welcomed those elites with open arms.
      This whole Tibetan paradise before the Chinese intervention is complete BS made up by the Dalai-Lama and CIA.
      All those fervent anti-Chinese and Pro-Tibet independence ‘Tbetans’ are mostly the descendants of the former elites of old Tibet. They are not the common people, who were actually happy to be freed.
      If you aren’t sure why don’t you do some research huh?

      I won’t deny that the PRC did some sh*t stunts, and are currently corrupt as hell, but let’s be honest, most of their policies hurt more ethnic Han Chinese than they did the ethnic minorities. Trust me. I am a ethnic minority from mainland China, and I’ll tell you right now, most common Han Chinese want to become one of us. That’s the advantage we have over them.

  17. In my experience, Chinese hatred of Japan (and vice-versa) can’t be encompassed in a general “I hate Japan” sentiment. I first travelled to Japan a couple years ago while rioters were storming the Japanese embassy over the Diaoyu/Senkaku dispute. I was careful not to mention my trip to people I didn’t know well just in case, but the Chinese friends I did tell we’re very curious about all they had heard about Japanese culture and the cleanliness in Japan. They were upset at the Japanese government because if the territorial dispute and WWII atrocities, but didn’t put that blame on the average Japanese citizen.

  18. “Tell the Tibetans and the Uighurs that. Or the Taiwanese, whose country China is currently attempting to annex”

    This assumes two things: that Tibetans and
    Uighurs generally agree with you and that they are correct. Both assumptions you have failed to prove. And both are demonstrably false. If some or even most Texans think Texas is an independent country that doesn’t make it so.

    “China is not a peaceful country.”

    This is not based on fact but your blind hatred and prejudice.

    “Since Chairman Mao’s death, China has been hands down the most peaceful great power of its time. For all the recent concern about a newly assertive Chinese navy in disputed international waters, China’s military hasn’t fired a single shot in battle in 25 years.”

    Looks like by posting links to support my claims I’ve really hit a nerve. You don’t seem to like facts. You just want to spew your propaganda, evidence to the contrary be damned. There is such a thing as a sock puppet. They don’t care for facts. There job is to spread misinformation.

    “Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media

    Military’s ‘sock puppet’ software creates fake online identities to spread pro-American propaganda”

  19. China regularly threatens Taiwan with war. The Taiwanese don’t want to be a part of China, and yet China has held mock military exercises of an ‘invasion of Taiwan’, in the past has done ‘missile tests’ to threaten Taiwan etc. – that is not peace.

    Do you think 23 million Taiwanese don’t deserve to determine what happens to their island? Do they not deserve democracy or self-determination? Do you really believe in dictatorship?

    And it’s nice to see that you don’t believe in self-determination. Shows exactly how skewed your viewpoint is. China violently took over Tibet and Xinjiang – both places full of people that want their right to self-determination. Or do you not think democracy is a good idea? Is it fine to impose external rule on a people who don’t want it? That is not peace. Threats are not peace. It doesn’t matter if you fire a shot – if you keep millions of people terrified of military action, that is not peace.

    If China were such a peaceful country, how come Taiwan can’t turn its de facto independence into de jure independence? How come China’s own people suffer under massive human rights abuses?

    Do you really think China should be able to take over any territory it wants, and if it does so its methods are justified, and if it threatens to, that’s justified as well? Do you really not believe that maybe the people in those territories and countries have a say?

    I could come back and post lots of articles about human rights abuses in China. I won’t, because you can Google them yourself.

    As I see it, if Texas wants independence so badly, let ’em have it. Otherwise comparisons to America fall flat – it doesn’t matter that we suck, in many ways, just as hard as China. I don’t deny that America has serious problems. I don’t even like America all that much. There probably are CIA-paid Internet trolls, but there are DEFINITELY Chinese-paid ones (I suspect you are one, in fact. Are you getting your fifty cents per post for this?) But that doesn’t excuse China – it’s a diversionary tactic and it’s pathetic.

    As are your “facts” – you’ve decided that “not firing a shot” (do shots fired when executing human rights activists count? I think they do) simply means peace, as though it is then OK to rattle sabers and threaten neighbors. You are dismissive of millions of people who want democracy and don’t want rule imposed on them that they never asked for and they never determined. You don’t seem to understand the concept of “human rights”. Your facts are propaganda. In the 21st century generally speaking it is agreed that people have the right to self-determination and universal human rights are, well, universal. China denies both. So, as far as I’m concerned, f*** the CCP.

    As for “rich white woman” – I guess that depends on how you define “rich”. I’m much poorer than many wealthy Chinese. I’m a freelancer, not exactly pulling in the big bucks. And what I’m saying echoes the general majority opinion of Taiwan. It’s not just me.

    I would say you make me sad, but you don’t.

    You make me sick. Stooge. I hope you like the taste of Xi Jinping’s butt…because you’re giving him a damn fine rimjob.

  20. And yeah, it does touch a nerve when I hear some ignorant rando bloviating about how the 23 million people in the democratic country of which I’m a permanent resident don’t deserve their democracy, their freedom or their human rights because, you know, “China”, and bases that on a ridiculous definition of “peace”.

    This is not peace:

    Neither is this:

    Also not peace:

    No peace here:

    Definitely not peace:

    China may not fire any shots, but they are not a peaceful country. They threaten, intimidate, execute and attempt to subvert. Their attempts to take over Taiwan politically by taking it over economically first are not peaceful, as much as Chinese authorities may pretend they are.

    So yeah, it touches a nerve to know that the country I call home might be invaded by one of the most atrocious dictatorships of our time, against its will, while the world looks on and people like you call it “peaceful”.

    1. These are threats, not actual wars. I’ll take threats over actual killing any day.
      For real wars, no one tops the U.S.

      U.S. was the first to use nukes (on Japan) and also used chemical weapons (U.S. dumped 18.2 million gallons of Agent Orange over more than 10% of Vietnam. Vietnamese govt claimed that 400,000 people were killed/maimed as a result of after effects, and that 500,000 children were born with birth defects.

  21. “China regularly threatens Taiwan with war. The Taiwanese don’t want to be a part of China, and yet China has held mock military exercises of an ‘invasion of Taiwan’, in the past has done ‘missile tests’ to threaten Taiwan etc. – that is not peace.”

    The PRC is not at war this Taiwan. Nice try at diversion though. But if you want to talk about Taiwan, who is selling weapons to Taiwan?

    If the PRC really wanted to take it, it would have already been taken over. But it has its own government. Who is trying to inflame the tensions? Whys is your country always trying to bomb and invade others? Why is your country always supporting dictatorships around the world? Why do you lie about China’s history as I have shown above?

    So now you have tried to shift the topic from China “stealing” land to “democracy” and Taiwan after I have exposed your BS. Typical sock-puppet behavior.

    And not only that but you seem really mentally unstable. I never called you a “rich white woman”. I don’t even know where you got that little paranoid delusion from. For all I know you are a poor, 19 year, old white male who’s working for the US government to spread misinformation. Sock-puppet. A little delusional? Perhaps sitting in your basement all day posting diatribes will make you lose your sanity?

  22. Another commenter wrote:

    “oh rich , a white woman telling asian people and asian countries what she thinks of them. Go look at your own damn country before you make claims that have no standing.”

    …and that was what I was responding to re: “rich white woman”.

    China isn’t at war officially with Taiwan, because officially to them Taiwan as a nation does not exist.

    But it is a feat of great stupidity and self-deception to believe that China is not threatening Taiwan and that this threat is not peaceful. China wants Taiwan – whether they want it by firing shots or by slow annexation doesn’t change the fact that they want it, and Taiwan isn’t interested. This. Is. Not. Peace.

    When China allows Taiwan **true** self-determination, that will be peace.

    And democracy isn’t a diversionary tactic. Democracy is a human right. It’s something people want. Do you really think it is so easily dismissed?

    That’s on you.

    I wonder whom I’m a sock puppet of. That’s a cute comment. I don’t care for the USA nor do I live in it. I am not a Taiwanese citizen so why would they pay me to post things? I certainly can’t stand the CCP. So who on earth is paying me, and if this is so, where’s my money? I’d be a lot wealthier than I am if I were someone’s sock puppet!

  23. I’ve put “Japan” on my list of topics never to bring up in front of someone that is Chinese. I’ve learned the history and reasons why they strongly dislike Japan and vice versa. >_<

    I remember Tony really wanted to go study abroad in Japan during his undergrad, but his parents were so strongly against it. As much as he tried there was no convincing them. Especially since his father use to be a history professor. Now that I think about it I'm not sure why he wanted to go study there if he strongly dislikes the country too. At the end he went to Poland. XD


    For people who have no idea that USA officially acknowledged Chinese territory including Tibet, Mongolia, Uighur even before WW2, you should stop this youtube video at 3:00. USA shed blood to defend this map against Japan. Please do not let your WW2 vets turning in their graves.

    For idiots who always feel better than others, here is your proof of stupidity.

  25. One thing missing out, USA even considered Mongolia was part of China. When USSR made mongolia independent, USA even criticized Chinese Government (Republic of China) accepting such status.

  26. She keeps shifting the topic because she already proved what she said was pure rubbish. She’s gone from claiming China is the biggest stealer of land to now claiming that it threatens Taiwan. Even if the PRC does it’s still a million times more peaceful than other major countries especially her own which not only threatens others but carried out the threats by bombing and occupied them.

    She sets standards far higher for China than she does for other countries because she’s a brainwashed stooge of US propaganda.

    Every major country threatens other countries. The US does to multiple others. Russia does to Ukraine. India does it to Pakistan. Japan does so to N. Korea. But it’s China that is especially terrible in her delusional little mind. What a joke.

    “Democracy is a human right. It’s something people want. ”

    No country has destroyed as many democracies ariund the world than your country. And I’m sure the Iraqis love that American style Democracy you imparted on them.

    Delusional. You spew your Democracy bs when your country isn’t even a true Democracy. You say you don’t like the US but you never criticize it, just hijack threads to criticize China with demonstrable lies.

    1. I don’t agree with everything Jenna says, but she is no troll. She has a right to her opinion and your constant attack of the US is off topic, IMO. Has she endorsed the US aggression in other countries? Has she denied that it has occurred?

      We are talking about Asia. Your are trying to shift the focus off China by pinning blame on America. There is plenty of blame to go around. Like you said, this happens everywhere. But does that mean we are just suppose to not take issue with any of it? Of course not. Many people take issue with China’s policies as it becomes more powerful; it’s natural that it will come under harsher criticism. It is now being looked to as a world leader and with that comes a certain responsibility. You can point to the US and say how it has failed to live up to that responsibility. Fine. But is it wrong to not want better? To want peace and as much fairness as possible?

      And please, enough with the “YOUR country this, and YOUR country that,” as if any of us has much say in what our governments do. Perhaps you are Chinese, as this is a linguistically element to the language that bothers me. It’s always 你们美国,我们中国, but I don’t think English speakers think quite that way.

  27. …and that was what I was responding to re: “rich white woman”.

    This woman is so confused she doesn’t even know who said what before she bothers respond. The “rich white woman” comment was by another poster, not me. Can she be more confused? She moves from topic to topic ascribing views to me I never claimed. The only thread that binds her mostly incoherent screeds is her irrational blind hatred for China. What a troll.

  28. I’m just amused that someone could fight SO hard to take away democracy, take away self-determination, and take away human rights. I mean, that’s what you stand for. And it says a lot about you.

    I don’t hate China, by the way.

    I hate the CCP.

    This hatred is not irrational – China (the CCP) denies its people human rights, denies its people democracy, holds at last two territories it took over violently where a majority of people do not wish to be a part of China, and threatens the country I call home. It’s not irrational at all to hate that.

    In your world it would be compulsory to ‘love China’ – in your world everyone who doesn’t kiss CCP butt is a ‘troll’. We must all deny the need for self-determination and human rights, bow down and kiss the ring.

    It’s nonsense.

    If China is such a peaceful, magnanimous country, Taiwan would be independent. It wouldn’t compete as “Chinese Taipei”, it would be in the UN, it would participate in world organizations and have the diplomatic ties it deserves. This is what the Taiwanese people want, and China is the *only* thing standing in their way.

    It’s not irrational to hate that.

    I hope the CCP is overthrown…soon.

    You can enjoy your dictatorship love fest over there. I’ll be here supporting the right of people to determine their own government and not be carted off and shot in the head for asking for basic rights.

  29. I do wonder how much you get paid by the Chinese government to post this trash, though. Is the standard rate still 50 cents? Is that enough to cover the cost of salve for the rug burns on your knees?

  30. I already showed you were full of sh! t. The issue is why are you coming here to spew propaganda and to insult others who disagree. You continue to do this hijacking threads with ill informed and barely coherent rants. I wonder how much lube it takes for you to get use to the government’s hand manipulating your every post. By the looks of your pic they might just pay you in cheeseburgers.

  31. (And I really mean it, by the way. I do in fact sincerely think you’re a fifty-cent troll whose strategy is to scare people away from discussing China’s territorial grabs, human rights abuses, and treatment of Taiwan, which is unconscionable. But you don’t scare me.)

  32. There’s nothing incoherent about supporting self-determination, human rights and democracy. China has no place being p!$$ed off at any other country over “territorial grabs” given its territorial grabs of Xinjiang and Tibet and continued treatment of Taiwan.

    You support dictatorship and authoritarianism, which means you’re on the wrong side of history.

    1. Your argument is simply ridiculous and it’s a potent indication of your anti-Chinese (no, not just anti-CCP) stance. First of all, the fact of the matter is that both Tibet and Xinjiang are recognised as Chinese terriory under international law and as such the Chinese people have every right, for legal reasons if nothing else, to consider them theirs and feel aggrieved at any attempt to carve them out of their country. You may not like it because of your distaste for China but you need to recognise the legitimacy of Chinese sovereignty over these territories. At the end of the day, it’s simply unreasonable to expect that China will give up 1/3 of its geography any more than the US would give up its colonial conquest of the North American continent, especially considering the strategic value of Tibet and Xinjiang.

      In any case, China’s ownership of Tibet and Xinjiang has no bearing on the relationship between China and Japan in the context of the discussion here. Even if we assume, for argument’s sake, that China’s claim to the territories are illegtimate, it in no way justifies the acts of aggression (the territroial swipes, the massacres, etc.) by Japan against China and so the Chinese people are right to be resentful toward Japan for these past grievances — the underlying logic here is that China did not do anything to Japan to deserve the way it was treated by Japan. (Of course, whether the present generation of Japanese people deserve to be on the receiving end of Chinese resentment is another matter.)

      I’m leaving Taiwan out of the discussion because I find talking about it here off-putting.

  33. “She has a right to her opinion and your constant attack of the US is off topic, IMO.”

    One sock puppet troll defending another sock puppet troll. Yeah, this us about as much about America as it is about China. But you only want to look at one side. How obviously trollish.

  34. I’m also still curious which government I’m a ‘sock puppet’ of, and what is ‘propaganda’ about the very well-documented ways in which China took over Xinjiang and Tibet, the way it marginalizes Taiwan on the world stage, and the way it treats its own citizens.

    Who wouldn’t hate a government that doesn’t believe in basic human rights?

  35. Look at the assumptions by sock puppet number two:

    “She has a right to her opinion and your constant attack of the US is off topic, IMO. ”

    She has a right to her opinions but I don’t have any for mine. Typical sock puppet hypocrisy.

    No, I didn’t “attack” the US. I posted some human rights issues that you seem to ignore and you also seem to have NO refutation or evidence against.

    “To want peace and as much fairness as possible?”

    Now she confuses wanting peace with spreading lies. How are these two related? They are not. By spreading lies, you do not create peace. You create more conflict. Such as when the US lied that Iraq had WMD and ties to al Qaeda which lead to a war that has killed one million Iraqis and caused 2.3 million refugees and a completely destroyed country paid for by your tax dollars and initiated by politicians you voted into office. How is that criticism of war not wanting peace? How is that unjustified criticism?

    You seem only hurt by criticism against the US.

    And I am a US citizen. But the difference is is that I have the moral character and courage to criticize with evidence and fairly, not just on one side like you and this jenna cody troll. I have commented here as well as elsewhere my criticisms of China (it’s modern culture, society and people). But you brook no criticisms at all of the US, just China. That’s clear.

    1. Hey, take it easy. R Zhao is actually pretty cool. You’ve made some good points and it’d be a shame for them to get lost amidst personal attacks. And you really should leave the US out of the discussion.

  36. “I actually do think you should be banned, by the way. ”

    Of course you do. You think anyone who holds an opinion contrary to yours and who has shown you are just BSing ought to be banned. That’s your version of good ole US “freedom of speech” just like your gov has shown Iraqis good ole US democracy.

    But it’s clear that it is you that has always been the one causing division and anger with your off topic posts bashing China.

  37. The only reason Asians don’t go at each other’s throat is because they have one thing in common…they are afraid of the white people.

  38. “And you really should leave the US out of the discussion.”

    First of all you brought up the US too in talking about its ‘colonization’.

    Second, this isn’t about the US. The point of my bringing it up if you haven’t noticed is not to talk about its crimes per se but to talk about sock puppet hypocrisy.

    That might have been lost on you due to the nuances if my discussion.

    Anyway you are correct that a discussion of Tibet, Taiwan legitimacy and sovereignty etc has no place in a discussion about tensions between Chinese and Japanese people or other peoples on Asia. One is about popular attitudes. The other is about politics and international law.

    But that’s my point.

    The sock puppets are trying to hijack the discussion to bash China. My example of pointing out that other countries does things far worse but sock puppets want to hide that basic fact while making up lies about China was meant to illustrate that contradiction just as your example of US “colonization” did (I think that was your intention or else I don’t see what relevance bringing in US’s past has anything to do with it). So don’t get all high and mighty before even understanding the situation.

  39. @David

    You are the one who are afraid of white. Don’t project your own mind on to others. Most my Asian friends have no fear of whites. Asian political leaders like Mao, and Japanese leaders before WW2 had no fear of whites. Chairman Mao even had contempt of Westerners.

    David is really a white supremacist who disguised as Asian loser to promote white racism.

  40. No.

    One can be aware of the terrible things the US has done (which I’m sure we all are) and still criticize China. I could turn it around and say it’s hypocritical for Chinese to criticize the USA given the atrocities its own government commits…in fact, that’s exactly my point. One need not be coming from a utopian land to be qualified to criticize another country’s government.

    And the Chinese government is unequivocally awful. Staging mock invasions of Taiwan, pointing missiles at Taiwan, implying that a democratic nation has no right to self-determination, taking over Tibet and then convincing the world that it was a legitimate thing to do, blaming every social ill on “Uighur separatists”, shutting down all discussion of Tiananmen Square. Turning many (not all but many) Chinese into sufferers of Stockholm Syndrome. Tearing down mosques in Xinjiang and temples in Tibet, giving all the best jobs in those areas to relocated Han Chinese while the Tibetans and Uighurs struggle. Executing human rights activists, expropriating land like it’s their job. Their control of the food supply and pollution is a gad-danged joke.

    It’s sick, what they do.

    And their treatment of Taiwan is unacceptable. Nothing short of allowing Taiwanese to vote on formal independence without threat of invasion will do. Anything else is a disgusting breach of democracy. How DARE they imply that the Taiwanese people don’t deserve the democracy and freedom they already enjoy? And then complain about “territorial swipes” from other countries?

    How f***ing DARE they.

    Especially when historically they have plenty of other good reasons to be pissed off at the Japanese government, which legitimately did commit atrocities it has not apologized for.

    I don’t need to come from a perfect state to notice that, and criticize it. And not everyone who thinks the Chinese government is awful is a “sock puppet”.

    The Chinese seem hell-bent on their country being portrayed positively to the world. They get super butthurt if their government is not well-received. They get all “that hurts the Chinese people”, “that’s a slap in the face of China”, “you don’t understand our 5000 years of culture” because they just can’t take the fact that no, their government is crap and the world sees it plainly for what it is. They just can’t take that authoritarianism and human rights atrocities are – surprise surprise! – not well-received in the rest of the world.

    And unlike, say, many Americans (like me) who are quite happy to admit that our own government also has crappy elements (and we are partly to blame because we voted them in and allow it to continue – at least the Chinese legitimately fear execution if they dare to speak up), it’s all “if you don’t think China is *the best thing ever* you are _______, _______ or ________ (insult random pejorative here – yours seems to be “sock puppet” along with personal attacks that make no sense).

    But I don’t think China is the best thing ever. China as a country and people, yeah, that’s fine. Been there, liked it well enough. But their government is the *worst*. At least North Korea keeps to itself, but the Chinese government has this deep-seated need to be accepted and loved, when it has done nothing to deserve it. And when it finds it is not loved, it pays people like you to harass others online for having different opinions. Only one opinion is acceptable to them. Unfortunately, it’s the one based in fallacy.

    And before they get to complain about another country’s expansionist rhetoric, they’d best examine their own.

    If you think you’re going to scare me off or get me to give up talking about the atrocities China continues to commit in its own territories and its continued threatening of Taiwan, think again bro.

    The CCP’s money isn’t going to win out here.

    And it isn’t going to win out in Taiwan, where the people **do not want you**. I know it must hurt, like when you really like a girl and want to go out with her but she’s not interested, but your government and its authoritarian, anti-liberty ways have been **rejected**. Get used to it, because it’s not going to change. And because they have the freedom to elect their leaders, you’ll start seeing more of that when they finally dump the pro-China KMT syncophants and elect Tsai Ying-wen.

    1. White people LOVE speaking on behalf on non whites. They love talking about how much they have bettered their non white’s lives and have their interests in mind without even asking them. They love talking about their “choices” such as how all Tibetans want independence or how all Iraqis want US liberation…

      Anyway, here’s a person that has actually studied the attitudes of Tibetans inside Tibetans areas in China.

  41. “You can criticize the US all you want. That’s not what I’m bothered by.”

    Sure it isn’t. And that’s why you only criticized me for talking about US abuses while you defended jenna cody for making up stuff completely off topic about China.

    Going off topic about Tibet and Taiwan using pure lies: not a peep from you.

    Pointing out that it’s off topic and hypocritical: you throw a mini tantrum.

    You really do seem to get upset at someone pointing out US crimes. I have to wonder why…

  42. @Jenna Cody,

    What is “Democracy”? Is it the right to simply cross your choice of candidate and slide into a ballot box? The delusion of the rights that give you a hope high that you at least contribute to the decision making process?

    One vote, one say, one person doesn’t exist in this 21st century.
    One dollar, one vote exists in this 21st century. You can buy your voting rights, heck even your voting rights in a company is depend on your holding shares, not one per employees.

    Why do you attack “Misanthrope” for “50 cents” party trolls? If you dare, expound on the fact he brought up and discuss. If you can’t, don’t throw “50 cent troll” cliche which in fact indicates that you can’t properly argue on what’s brought forward, instead you heavily rely on negative connotation of “50 cent troll”.

    Let me just put it this way, avoid using vulgar words when it comes to China and Taiwan process if you are arguing against Chinese and Taiwanese. Just because you got PR in Taiwan doesn’t mean that you have every rights to criticize China. If you still don’t get it, just because Chinese got a Green card in America doesn’t simply allow them to criticize all other government as well. If you ever come across Chinese Americans in your face arguing American politics? You’ll be laughing your … off and thinking “Why the heck Chinese Americans are discussing American politics?” This is your Uncle Sam manipulation of American public on internal affairs. Asian politicians try to win votes, instead received a slew of “racist” letters in Brooklyn. So the same goes here as well. You’re lucky you don’t get “Racist” email from Asians for talking about China and Taiwan.


    Jenna Cody is for sure not a sock-puppet of the US. She’s a legitimate blogger and commenter here. So it doesn’t help if you keep referring her as “sock-puppet”.

    1. I don’t really see the reason in your comment about Chinese Americans discussing politics. They are AMERICAN, don’t they have a right to discuss and have opinions (even strong opinions) about the country they are citizens of? I’m sure there are plenty of Chinese American citizens (and residents) that know a lot more about US politics than I do. I’m not sure if your issue is more the level to which Jenna takes her stance? In that case, I might understand more where you are coming from.

  43. Let’s say China in fact land-grabbed from Tibet, saber-rattled Taiwan, threaten Taiwan democracy, what can you do? You hate the CCP, ok, what can you do about it? Vocal online? Pro-Taiwan and Anti-China? China interest in Taiwan is not simple as we discuss here. It’s not all about history, races, ethnicity, it’s a lot more to that.

    Now let’s turn our head to the US politics. Why the US government repatriated Mexicans from California, Texas just because the government bought the land or grabbed the land regardless of native residents? Don’t simply say “Yes, the US has ugly history as well, we can’t deny that.” Then what happened? Just an “Apology” letter and everything’s settled under the sun? Ok China land grabbed from Tibet. We agreed that. What would you do? Tell us, enlighten us, what you Jenna Cody want to do with that?

    Kiss Xi Jingping … and ask him to let Tibet secede from China territory?
    Maybe we can go and kiss Clinton, Obama …. and ask them to let Hawaii secede from the States, Texas as well? What are we talking about? Or maybe Puerto Rico as well?

    To be blunt, when someone discusses “politics” it sounds as similar as donkey. When talking about their mistakes, “Yes, we have ugly history. I have a problem back home. But let me continue ahead with my opinion on what is wrong with your internal affairs.” Americans think that this is “Democracy” when it comes to criticizing others, but when one criticizes America, they’re all gone bananas and end with “Yes, nobody is perfect.”

    Why the F shut up about other country politics? If you can’t, then be ready to listen to your own country politics as well, especially when someone from China criticizes America. No, don’t end the conversation with “Yes, we have ugly history.” Let us finish what we have to say first.

    Grenada Invasion.

    1. I think it’s true–it’s easy to sit around and point the finger, but coming up with a real, workable solution is difficult. I would imagine that no country, especially one with over one billion people, would willing give up land the size or Tibet or Xinjiang. On the other hand, I believe that there are ways in which the Chinese government can improve on their handling of the current situation.

  44. David,

    Your out-of-context comment on White people racist behavior every time there’s an article remotely relevant is becoming more and more ridiculous. Not only White people are racist, I’d say all humans on this earth is “Racist”. That’s the fact.

    Are Chinese racists? Yes, you’d bet.
    Are Japanese racist? Yes, you’d bet.
    Are Koreans racist? Yes, you’d bet.
    Are German racist? obviously.
    Are French racist? Yes they are.
    Are British racist? Of course.

    Everybody is racist. The only thing is the “Affordability” of racism along the way. Are Black people racist too? Yes you’d bet. But they can’t afford that. The only time they can afford is when they become rich and have power. That’s simple as that. So you bringing all articles on racist behavior of White people, there are plenty of that. Black people racist behavior can be amply seen in NBA. That’s simple.

  45. What I meant was the governments of majority white people countries, or perceived countries where whites are powerful such as the US..

    Asian governments will not go at each other’s throats because it will turn into another Middle East and intervention from white countries Russia and the US included….it is the power or the perceived power of the white people.

  46. Rdm…white people, racist or not are perceived by Asians to have power…they look at the Middle East and know what will happen if they go at each other’s throats.

    1. Maybe uneducated one from rural area where they worship any Westerners. Surely those “Whites” enjoy being the center of attention for whatever reason they think justifiable.

      The one where you talked about White women fleeing from blind-dating Chinese millionaires is not as simple. You can’t simply pull out of “White Vs Chinese” in this scenario and tag with “Millionaires” in Chinese men belongings. There are several factors playing here.

      Would Fang BingBing from China date Millionaire Donald Sterling?
      Would Billionaire Jack Ma blind date Rosie O’Donnell? It’s not just “White Vs Asian”. It’s the freaking “Ugliness” of each people.

  47. Nope. I am saying that unlike the Middle East governments in Asia will never go at each other’s throats, because of the intervention by outside source, who are mostly white.

  48. I don’t think even millionaires will want to date Donald Sterling. I don’t think even Bill Gate’s daughter will want to have anything to do with the Sterling family.

  49. Long, long time ago, I was guilty of having the same thoughts, that all Asian cultures are alike 🙁 then I started to get myself educated on Asian cultures which enabled me to learn things that I haven’t learned in school, such as the fact that different ethnicities inhabit China, not only Han Chinese (Hakka, Manchus, etc) then I learned of the horrors that China and Korea went through during World War II, then I began watching Korean dramas and got myself educated on rudimentary Korean history and I also started to enjoy Korean food.

    Around my neighborhood, I have three major Asian marts; two Chinese and one Korean that my family and I go there frequently (fruits and other things are much cheaper there…) and inside they sell Japanese snacks/food along with Korean snacks/food and Chinese snacks/food. Some restaurants I go to offer more than one type of cuisine, and there are different Asian restaurants next to one another.

  50. I don’t think ethically speaking China should get a “choice” in whether it gives up Tibet or Xinjiang. Both territories were gotten by unacceptable means and the people in them do not wish to be a part of China, ergo, they should have the right to self-determination. And if China doesn’t like that, well…I don’t really care what the CCP likes or doesn’t like.

    So the “solution” as I see it is for the Chinese government as it exists now to cease to exist, and for a new post-CCP overthrow democratic government to give Tibet and Xinjiang the chance at a referendum on independence or a measure of autonomy (real autonomy – what they are given now is a farce). My guess is that Tibet would vote to stay, but for autonomous domestic self-governance, and Xinjiang would decide to go.

    This is not without precedent: the UK gave Scotland a vote (Scotland was incorporated into the UK without the people’s agreement). Scotland, historically, chose to stay (though a lot of Scots are not happy about that). So it’s entirely within precendent to allow a territory to make its own choice.

    That same government could realize that colonialist aspirations (which is what China has towards Taiwan – you can’t just take over another sovereign government and have it not be colonialism or outright invasion) are soooooo early 20th century and developed, ethical nations do not do that sort of thing anymore, and let Taiwan go its own way.

    I don’t really see any other solution – the CCP has got to go, or to reform into a real democracy. It cannot and will not be a respected world power on any sort of ethical level until it does. Other large diverse countries – the US, Brazil, Canada, India, Indonesia – are basically successful democracies, so the whole “but China is too big to govern that way” excuse doesn’t hold water. Taiwan has a thriving democracy so “Chinese culture is incompatible with democracy” is obvious bollocks. It’s time to reform or be overthrown. Adapt or die.

    So yeah, they could do what the KMT-ed ROC did and reform into a democratic nation that respects the rights and indigenous cultures of those two territories and by doing so, convince them (or at least one of them – I don’t think Uighurs will ever want anything to do with China but Tibet seems more amenable as long as their culture is truly respected) to remain within the national boundaries of China. Taiwan of course would vote for formal independence but we all know that.

  51. Pretty much everyone has every right to criticize China, RDM, except actual Chinese in China who face arrest for doing so. There’s no special card you get that says “now you have the right to criticize China”.

    I do, you do, Jocelyn does, we all do. China would dearly like to be able to say “you may not criticize us” (they try it, in fact, with that ‘you hurt the feelings of the Chinese people’ nonsense), but that’s not how it works in a free-speech environment. So I will go on criticizing the Chinese government, because there is a lot to criticize.

    I did expound on misanthrope’s “facts”. He blithely dismisses self-determination and human rights and equates “peace” with “hasn’t been in a declared war in awhile”. I’ve already addressed why that is NOT peace. He returned with a personal attack based on how I look or something? Even though I have no picture posted? I didn’t understand that, but he tried anyway.

    So yeah, someone like that *is* a troll. It fits pretty well with what the wu mao do:

    “What is democracy” = diversionary tactic. We all know well what democracy is. China doesn’t have it, and it’s too bad because at least some Chinese wanted it (in 1989 they wanted it enough to die for it) and at least two territories and one city want it. You can dismiss it if you like – you’re wrong, but you can – but you’ll note that countries that have it are loathe to give it up. It clearly means *something*. Do you really think it’s OK to just take away the rights of 23 million Taiwanese, rights they already enjoy?

  52. @Hopelessmisanthrope,

    I take your point. And yeah, I was aware of the irony as I mentioned the US in my previous comment but like you I was addressing Jenna Cody’s diversion (though I don’t think we were doing it the same way), and trying to show the unrealistic expectation that is placed on China.

    But I maintain that R Zhao is cool and if you give her an honest discussion she will reciprocate. Jenna Cody on the other hand is your run-of-the-mill China-basher, except that she still wants to make a show of noble intentions with qualifications such as “I’m anti-CCP” or trite appeals to democratic values such as “it’s what the Taiwanese want”. These days, China-bashers have no qualms about saying exactly what they think, often with choice racial epithets.

  53. Long time ago growing up in Asia I also thought that the UK was paradise on earth. We learnt in school that Brits came and ruled over parts of Asia and there was some racism against the natives. We were naïve to all the racism against the Asians and blacks in the UK. We did not even know about Enoch Powell’s River of Blood Speech. The week he made the speech back in April 1968, I was in fourth grade and we were viewing movie pictures of the quaint English country side.

    Thinking all the Asians are same is due to the American education system. Focusing on what happened three hundred years ago instead of current events is also the problem with the Asian education system including India, Singapore, Malaysia etc. to just name a few.

  54. @R Zhao,

    “I’m not sure if your issue is more the level to which Jenna takes her stance? In that case, I might understand more where you are coming from.”

    Asian Americans have every rights to discuss. They have participated in American politics long enough. We agreed on that.

    The way I see is when one discusses politics or religions, the topics that tend to create lots of tension and divisions, one has to discuss to their best as to why their take on certain issues are in line with their logic and stance. There are many Asian Americans blogs where I used to participate in the heated discussion. More often than not, they all diverge into ad-hominem arguments. Now I’m seeing Misanthrope throwing “sock-puppet” to Jenna, and Jenna throwing “50 cent party troll” argument. They all add nothing to the discussion. If one starts throwing “ad hominem” and the others follow, you don’t have to think twice that both have lost their grounds that everyone can listen to. If one can truly argue, trolls can be easily detected.

    Jenna has every right to critique on China and Taiwan issue as does Misanthrope. But the argument brought forward by Jenna can sometimes be seen as “Third grader” level which I’ll clarify in another comment. Misanthrope ad-hominem attack (Sock-puppet of the CIA, US” “White politics on non-Whites nations” is almost similar to what “White” Americans used to bash Asian Americans on politics when they lost the grounds “Go back to China!!!, go back to Asia where you belong. You don’t belong here.” All situations add nothing to the argument in hand.

    “I would imagine that no country, especially one with over one billion people, would willing give up land the size or Tibet or Xinjiang. On the other hand, I believe that there are ways in which the Chinese government can improve on their handling of the current situation.”

    This is my sentiment at best.

  55. @Jenna,

    I agreed on some of your points in your argument, but most of the points I found it amusing or sometimes even absurd, bordering on stupidity of one’s highest imagination.

    The points I found reasonable to ponder on are Taiwanese people rights and their choice. But your solution of “Ergo, CCP must go or overthrown, and newly elected democratic government…” falls flat. This is like someone saying;

    “Racism is common in America. Usually White people are racist. Ergo, all White people should go back to their ancestor land, Europe or reduced their population, comparable to those of other minorities so that equally distributed newly formed society can function ….” despite so many achievements that were later achieved by new immigrants from all over the world, especially Europeans in the first wave of immigration.

    How do you find that statement? Stupid at best Or maybe epitome of one’s stupidity. This is not workable solution at all. Your argument on China and Taiwan is bordered on the CCP foreign policy. Without the CCP, everything can be solvable in your premises. Only democratically elected government can render “Freedom of choice” and “Freedom of expression” as you imagine.

    I’m neither a CCP proponent or opponent. Now let’s pause here for a while and look around, maybe something that you might be familiar with in the region you’re living now.

    Japanese Prime Minister Abe, democratically elected, chose to aggravate the situation in the Pacific region, especially against China and S.Korea:
    Senkaku/Diaoyu island dispute between Japan and China
    Dokto/Takeshima island dispute between S.Korea and Japan

    Democratically elected Japanese government chose to “Nationalize” the Senkaku island. Why? I’m not saying It’s wrong. I’m just pointing out that Why is it now? Prior to that, the island was privately owned by a Japanese man.

    Or Democratically elected Korean government chose to militarily invade Dokto island and claims the islands under their sovereignty. Why?

    Should all Japanese and Korean people have some say in their government decision? Japanese hate Koreans for stealing their Takeshima island while Chinese hate Japanese for stealing Diaoyu island although both cases always call for controversy and legitimacy of ensuing arguments. I’m not interested in the ownership of those disputed islands. The idea of “Democratically elected government Vs citizen voice” is what I’m more interested in.

    Now if you still can’t wrap your head around those disputed islands, here’s another similar scenario. Why British claims Falklands island as their sovereignty considering the island is much further away from the nearest country Argentina? Why British went war with Argentina over the islands? It’s because of history? because of who found the island first? Why there have been so much dispute on the islands between French, Spain, and the British? and Argentina at least? Why British decided to go war with Argentina? Did the UK government ask their citizens for “national interest”?

    All those disputes I laid out above are concerned with “Democratically elected government”.

    Regarding Scotland, I agreed that giving an opportunity for local residents choice for their country direction is a must. But remember it comes after 400 years of infusion between neighboring lands, trade, culture, ethnicity, family etc etc etc. Even after 400 years, half a population still wants “Full independence”. You can imagine 10 years after annexation, the whole population of Scotland would have wanted full independence.

    The point I’m clarifying is your argument of “CCP must go or overthrown, only democratically elected government can correct …” flies in the face of so many historical precedents as well as the current ones. It’s not CCP the government. Whatever government comes into power in China, “Taiwan” will be “Top priority” in National Interest of China. The only time you will see referendum on Taiwanese people in your life time will be when China knows for sure “referendum” will inevitably lead to the official annexation of the two territories.

    If you still can’t digest the idea, here’s my succinct summary;

    Why Americans always fret over whose party is better over whose party? Dem party bashing on GOP, while GOP trash Dem. Both parties don’t look for the very citizens that they ought to serve instead they look out for their party best interest. So Americans got to choose between Apple and Orange every 4 years. The problem is they both are rotten.

    For Chinese, they don’t get to choose. They have to digest with either one given, yet rotten.

    So your call.

  56. You can argue all you want. If you cannot agree with another person’s point of view, that’s fine too. But this Jenna Cody, just because people do not agree with what you say, you can go around town and start calling people a 五毛. If your only response is to call people 五毛 because they do not agree with you that really says a lot about you.

  57. Thanks to everyone for the continuing discussion on what is clearly a very contentious issue.

    I always welcome debate and appreciate seeing commenters argue their side of an issue. If you don’t like someone’s opinion, you’re welcome to disagree with them in a civil manner — whether that’s stating “I disagree” or “I don’t like that” flat out, or following that with an explanation of why you don’t like or agree with that individual. I do ask, however, that you not engage in personal attacks on commenters. I’ve had to unapprove a number of comments on this thread because they were personal attacks.

    While I am attempting to moderate this thread, if I have missed anything in the comments that should be moderated, please let me know and I’ll do my best to rectify the situation.

    Ultimately, I want this website to be a place where people feel they can speak their minds in a civil manner. Let’s all work together to make that a reality. To those of you already modeling that exemplary behavior here, thank you for that. You are what makes this website a wonderful place to hang out.

  58. We presume to know what democracy is (or what is should be) but I would be hesitant in saying that all democratic countries/societies follow the true parth of democracy.

    From reading the above comments there is passion and honest belief in what each individual is saying. However passion can blindside us so we only see what we want to see or what we believe is the best without taking note of all the little variables that exist and which can crush or turn ideas and beliefs upside down.

    Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that China and her people have “never” lived under a democratic rule? If this is the case how do you introduce a new and foreign way of governing to a country that has never known any different? ( that’s not saying the way it’s being run now is either right or wrong). How would you (democratically) govern a developing country with a population of 1.4 billion that’s so diverse in so many ways ( socially, intellectually, educationally, wealth etc)? I couldn’t even begin to imagine.

    China has problems but so does the rest of the world, no country under any rule is perfect ( whether it’s Communist, Socialist, Democratic and anything in between)

    My own retrospect:

    Human rights : Yes China can do so much more to improve in this area however now in some countries human rights has gone overboard in that criminals who have committed in humane crimes can claim ” it’s against my human rights” to be………!

    Crime: (this one l added) As a foreign woman living in China I can walk the streets in China ( day or night ) and feel safe. I don’t feel intimidated, threatenend or scared but l can not say the same thing in my own country. Instead l am told not to walk alone in areas ( whether it be day or night), keep away from….., avoid……

    Territorial Disputes: Many Countries throughout history ( since the time dot) has taken land/ things for themselves since. It’s not solely China/Kore/Japan. There’s Norway/Finland, Britain/Argentina, Greece/Tyrkey, the Balkan countries etc, etc.

    United Nations: A great ideology and in times of need Nations come together to serve at time of need. But honestly each country bitches about one another and each country has something to say about the other (very rarely positive mostly negative) . Most people believe their country is the best (?) and very rarely will they listen to foreign criticism without “hitting back” – I guess this is patriotism and patriotism like passion can blind side us.

    Asia is not united, the Middle East is not united and Europe is not united even though it falls under the EU.

    I’m sure Jocelyn had no idea when writing this post she would get such “heated” and “passionate” comments.

  59. Why is everyone so hostile? Why are you all talking about territorial disputes, racism, annexaton, etc.? Why talk about killings? Why not talk about the true purpose of this blog (love bewteen Chinese/Asian and White couples)?

    Let us talk about how we white boys can get ourselves some hot looking Chinese or Asian babes and how to rmance them. I personally have not seen any overt acts of racism where I live. I unfortunately broke up with my ABC gal recently and should be on the prowl for another.

    Hey all, give me some advice on how to get another Chinese doll. Many thanks to you all.

    1. Manny, I don’t think everyone is hostile. Honestly, this is a real issue that I think is relevant to dating cross-culturally. I’ve certainly had to face it living in China and dating/marrying a local person. It was something I actually knew NOTHING about before moving to Asia. If you are really interested in dating a Chinese woman, it’s something just to be aware of and maybe be a little bit sensitive to.

      That’s great you haven’t seen any overt acts of racism where you live. But racism often, I’d go so far as to say USUALLY, isn’t overt. I would argue that it might be easier to deal with if it was more overt. Furthermore, if you are white (as I am), you aren’t going to experience or witness it as a minority would. I don’t think it’s productive to go around screaming how everyone in ____ is racist (as a particular commenter does), but there’s no denying that racism is a problem in the US as well as pretty much everywhere.

  60. Just a sidenote to R Zhao,

    IDGAF is an attitude I have for Manny after dwelling here in Jocelyn blog for so long. Occasionally when I come across, I remind everyone who has a pure intention, that Manny is a troll. But sometimes I’m gone for a hiatus so I might miss a reminder.

    Manny used to tell that his grandfather was in Beijing during WWII, fighting Axis of Evil. When he (his grandfather) was there, he used to go to Chinese brothels, and regaled his grandson (Now Manny) how Chinese dolls were flocking towards him.

    “Chinese doll” seem a normal usage until you realize it is a denigrating word towards Chinese women with underlying messages of “Submissive, subservient, etc etc etc” in this 21st century.

    Manny has two sisters whom he was willing for Asian men to *pound* their brains out (verbatim), while he was looking for ABC girl one weekend, hoping he can pop her cherry (verbatim) over her sleepover. Right Manny?

    My friends used to tell me I have a strong memory.

    What else? Oh yea, He was drooling over Jocelyn’s panty as well?

    I might have missed his deeds after a while coz I was busy at the time.

    Manny you’re still not giving your address so that I can give your two sisters a visit.

  61. @Manny, I really don’t feel comfortable when you refer to Chinese women as Chinese dolls. I don’t know if its intention or not, but China dolls seems so…possessive and degrading.

  62. Oh god, this finds me of when I wanted to download Chinese subtitles and instead, I found “Asian subtitles”. Incredibly frustrating

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