Obama or Romney 2012? What Are The Political Leanings Of Chinese Men And The Western Women Who Love Them

A photo of Barack Obama and Mitt Romney at a political debate
Barack Obama and Mitt Romney at a political debate (photo by Stijn Vogels)

Here in the US, we’re on the eve of yet another presidential election — and a nonstop dialogue about political persuasions. So of course, I happened to come across a recent article about Chinese-Americans and voting. While it’s mainly about why politicians don’t court their vote nearly enough, one thing caught my attention:

Logically, the two major parties should be fighting for Asian-American votes, since ideologically they identify with the family values and encouragement of individual effort emphasized by Republicans, while at the same time supporting the Democrats’ policy that the government should take care of vulnerable groups. The Asian-American electorate swings both ways.

In the same vein, I found this info on voting trends:

In the 1992 presidential election Republican George H. W. Bush received 55% of the Asian-American vote compared to 31% for Democrat Bill Clinton. Asian Americans voted Republican and were the only racial group more conservative than whites in the 1990s, according to surveys. The Asian American vote has slowly shifted since then with Democrat John Kerry winning 56% of the Asian American vote in the 2004 U.S. Presidential Election and Democrat Barack Obama winning 62% of the Asian American vote in the 2008 U.S. Presidential Election.

Which got me thinking — what are the political leanings of Chinese men and the Western women who love them?

As the first quote said above, I think the strong traditional family values in Chinese culture — and the growth of Christianity/Chinese Christian Churches around the world — go together perfectly with the current Republican party ideals. So does the fact that the Republican party seems to more openly promote trade/business relations with China.

But then you consider the “government should help the vulnerable” stance from the Democrats, which would appeal to Chinese (after all, China still likes to say it has socialism with “Chinese characteristics, and my husband is a big fan of socialist policies). Plus, Chinese men and Western women are such an uncommon pairing, which to me means you have to be a little more unconventional — and less conservative — to leap into that kind of relationship; that sounds more Democratic as well.

Yet, given how Asian Americans are trending more and more Democratic in presidential elections, I imagine the same will hold true for Chinese men and Western women together — giving the Democratic party (and, this year, Barack Obama) a slight edge.

Would the same, then, hold true for my readership? Help me out here and cast your “vote” in this poll. If you could vote in the November 6th election in the US, who would you vote for? (Note — I’m closing the “polls” at 12 midnight GMT/8am Beijing time Thursday November 8.)

Also, I’d love to hear your views on this in the comments — do you agree or disagree with my theory? Do you have alternative or better explanations? Tell us about it.

And for those American citizens out there, don’t forget to get out and vote! 😉

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121 Replies to “Obama or Romney 2012? What Are The Political Leanings Of Chinese Men And The Western Women Who Love Them”

  1. I do think your theory holds true – but it’s worth it to add that the Republicans have a reputation in the USA for being, well, racists and bigots. And let’s be honest – this reputation is not entirely undeserved. Their policy goals are kind of racist in a “keep the middle and lower classes down and help the rich, and pretend that’ll help the not-rich, and most lower classes in America tend to be minorities and most wealthy people tend to be white” way.

    A lot of minority groups in the US have strong family values and are more socially conservative than their voting tendencies show. It’s not just Asians. And yet they tend to vote/support Democrat because, in the rest of the world, the Republicans are seen as the epitome of American arrogance and hubris. Which, again, is not an undeserved label.

    I can see how any minority – be they Chinese-American, Chinese, and basically everyone else not covered by this blog would feel excluded by that. I can see how a woman married to a Chinese man would sympathize with minority issues in the US and not support the Republicans. Plus, if she’s been to China she’s probably interested in travel, and Americans who travel broadly tend to be very liberal (as someone who travels a lot, I can say I can’t recall ever meeting an American conservative abroad. They are certainly out there, but I haven’t met ’em). If you polled the Taiwan American expat community the vast majority would be Democrats – only a few businessmen might lean Republican, and maybe a couple of the diplomats in the consulate.

    So I’d say CMWF couples would lean more Democrat than you initially suggested.

  2. Well if you said so then think again. This time around vote for Barry Soetoro (the real name of Obama = 4 more years under Indonesian rules). Here’s where to look Just googled it with:Antara news+Obama siswa angkatan ke dua di SD Asisi by the way here’s the link: http://www.antaranews.com/berita/1268813841/obama-siswa-angkatan-kedua-di-sd-asisi and then use the translator before you’re vote. Here’s why I’m telling you this: Both wanted to pulled their bayonet against the Chinese but only BHO aka BS is the one that shall make war if necessary to fight against China. When he was grown up in Jakarta there’s a huge anti Chinese sentiment therefore if you love your husband and love to see the relation going well between the 2 nations then pick Romney but if you wanted to have another transformation of USA into Indonesian then go ahead pick on Obama. After you see this please send this things back to US soil

  3. on that link that I had sent it is obvious that Jakarta make Washington a laughing stock since the US pick an Indonesian to become their potus in 2008 and they will laughing again should the potus will be another term of Barry Soetoro. That link tell the me that Obama real name is actually Barry Soetoro and his citizenship Indonesian and last but not the least his religion is a muslim.
    It takes another Apache to spot and track down the other Apache. Me my self now wondering around the worl but my origin is born in Indonesia (Jakarta actually and I’m a Chinese).

  4. I agree with Jenna’s analysis for this one.
    Minority group in general will vote Democrat. Republican party has changed from the time when Lincoln was president. China factor will not be a big concern for Chinese Americans. People vote base on issues closer to home. I don’t think women with Chinese men switch parties after marriage. Most of these women are highly educated and democrats to begin with.
    With the demographic change in US when whites soon to be minority majority, republican policies will have to change to appeal to minorities.
    “you consider the “government should help the vulnerable” stance from the Democrats, which would appeal to Chinese”
    If these two parties are in China, most rich and middle class Chinese will vote republican.

  5. I used to tell narratives about the racist white women I met abroad, who will never date any non-white, let alone just Chinese men, but who are voting for Obama..now multiply these racist white women about five times..you get racist Asian women attitudes or even just racist Asian attitudes….they will never date a black person, they will never let a black person into their homes…but I will bet you anything 99% of these racist Asian Americans will vote for Obama!

  6. I voted for Romney. I have a few friends from China who are voting for Obama. The first generation immigrants are definitely voting for Obama. And then you have the Blacks and Hispanics who are also voting for Obama because they’re in the bottom of the income and academic pool. Somehow people are led to believe the Republicans are evil and they only care about the 1% wealthy Americans. That’s hardly the truth. It’s not the top 1% to be blamed for bankrupting the country but the bottom 30% who receive some form of government assistance (welfare) and many of them don’t deserve to be helped. Obama would do anything to get reelected. He tried to get votes from Hispanics by passing laws to allow illegals to stay in the US. He also tried to get rid of the requirement for voter identification which is very wrong. And for those who think Clinton did a great job don’t understand politics. The only reason why the country was doing well under Clinton administration is that he was trying to pass all kinds of spending programs and the Republicans opposed and that’s why we didn’t have a deficit as bad as what we have now.

  7. “It’s not the top 1% to be blamed for bankrupting the country but the bottom 30% who receive some form of government assistance (welfare) and many of them don’t deserve to be helped.”

    Just like the rich white folks who receive loads of farm subsidy.

  8. “The only reason why the country was doing well under Clinton administration is that he was trying to pass all kinds of spending programs and the Republicans opposed and that’s why we didn’t have a deficit as bad as what we have now.”

    Wrong! Clinton did well because of the Immigration Act of 1990 which was signed into law by President George HW Bush. And may I remind you that Bush Jr also spent like there is no tomorrow and did not give a damn about debt or deficits. Sure, Obama made it worse. But, dont insult people’s intelligence.

  9. I myself am a strong conservative, and my (Chinese citizen) wife has been heavily influenced by my political leanings (she wasn’t interested in US politics at all before this year). She is convinced that President Obama’s liberal social and economic policies will run the US into the ground if he is re-elected. I myself am not very excited about Romney, but I view him as the best (only viable) alternative to President Obama’s borderline-socialist policies. Actually, Herman Cain was my favorite candidate in the Republican primary; my wife actually liked Newt Gingrich the best (!) (because he was a straight shooter in the debates; she knew nothing about his political history).
    It has been interesting listening to the political rhetoric this election season with the rampant China-demonizing. Granted the conservative side uses it more frequently, but liberals have invoked it almost as much. It has made me realize that most Americans know almost nothing about the trade/business relationship between China and the US, and most politicians are happy to leave it that way (ill-informed people are more easily manipulated).
    I agree that most Americans who travel/live abroad tend to be more liberal. However, there are exceptions to every rule; I lived in China for three years where I met my wife, and I am a hardcore social and fiscal conservative. My wife has a (US) Master’s degree in Counseling, and I am almost finished with my PhD in Computer Engineering. I think that most of the Chinese-Americans in our university town in a solidly conservative area of the country tend to vote more conservative (most of our Chinese friends are University students or professors).

  10. Seeing all the comments from some of you remind me we really need to get more Asians to study social science. The level of indifference to social justice and lack of awareness of structural problems are astonishing.

  11. Wow, no kidding, askdsk!
    It’s very hard, in this modern age of manipulative billion dollar campaigns and media frenzied lap dogs, for people to know what’s truly in their best interest. I think we need a serious re-introduction of civics classes in the nation’s highschools, and some kind of critical thinking class pertaining to governance at the college level as well.

  12. @David People like you blame Bush for everything. I’m not pro Bush but let’s be fair. What do you expect after 9/11 and then wars in the middle east and then the housing crisis? Do you blame the housing crisis on banks too? My dad used to preach about how Republicans kept giving wealthy Americans tax breaks that they didn’t deserve and the low income earners like himself were not making enough There is a reason why my dad was a low income earner and I had to keep telling him that even though it was not something he would like to hear. Blaming the top 1% is like blaming your boss. If your boss does not get favorable treatment for his business, he would not invest in his business and you would not have a job. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. Would you like the top 1% leave the country and give up their citizenship so they won’t have to pay any taxes? It’s happening already.

  13. I would vote for neither one. I would vote, but I don’t like either one of them. I think personally most would vote Republican if they could, because it applies to the family values which might be more important than government, or am I wrong?

  14. “What do you expect after 9/11 and then wars in the middle east and then the housing crisis? Do you blame the housing crisis on banks too?”

    More nonsense! What did I expect? Roll back the tax cuts and make all Americans pay for it instead of running up the debt. As I said dont think other people are dumber.

  15. Furthermore, what I expected after 9/11 was Christian brother and sisterhood in a show of unity against radical Islam. Instead what happened, the Bush Administration which had been pushing for Immigration Reform seeded it to the anti-immigrant present-day weed and marijuana pusher by the name of Tom Tancredo. The demonization of immigrants, legal and otherwise began. The Bush Administration gave into white skin worshippers among the Republicans…Tancredo, Rohrbacher, Steve King and Duncan Hunter, Joe Arpaio, Jan Brewer and Russel Pierce among others. And the rest was history. Had the GOP tried to unite at least Evangelical Hispanics, blacks, whites and Asians under a banner and sung “Onward Christian Soldiers” it might have created an enduring majority. Instead any association with darker skinned folks is an anathema to many evangelicals and it could not be achieved. Hispanics began to desert the GOP in droves and even the most conservative evangelical Hispanics now back Obama.
    “Do you blame the housing crisis on banks too?”
    Fannie Mae and Fredding Mac. Fuld and Mudd.
    “Blaming the top 1% is like blaming your boss. If your boss does not get favorable treatment for his business, he would not invest in his business and you would not have a job.”
    Favorable treatment comes from a variety of factors ranging from taxes to trade and immigration policy. Bosses make a decision based on a number of factors unless they are like Koch brothers. Wonder bread laid of midwestern workers. Guess what happened? A French company picked them up.
    “Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. Would you like the top 1% leave the country and give up their citizenship so they won’t have to pay any taxes? It’s happening already.”
    If Americans owners dont stay and provide jobs, foreign corporations will. Why do you think the citizens of Ohio is saying their state is headed in the right direction and the unemployment is below 7% in that state? Nope. Not your white American boss providing jobs…it is the Japanese, Koreans, British, Germans, Italians and yes even Chinese. If we have unfettered free markets with free investment between countries, it will take care of itself. The problem with the GOP is they talk up free markets, and then dole out goodies to their constiutuents…farm subsidies for wealthy white farmers, restrictions on FDI to protect their white American buddies. If we have absolute free market, I will agree with your argument..my point is the GOP does not support it. End of story.

  16. “I can’t imagine a Chinese-American EVER voting for Romney since he said on day 1 he would label the Chinese cheaters.”
    Chinese Americans are Americans. I would like to think that Romney is referring to the Chinese government rather than the Americans of Chinese origin…although I do understand based on US history that is a distinction the country rarely makes.

  17. If Romney is elected, he is likely to have moderate policies based on his records. In order to appeal to voters, he has leaned more to the far right. It is possible he will be in office. That is why people should all go vote.

  18. @David Just as I thought. You blame the housing crisis on everyone except for the homeowners. Those homeowners who could barely afford the mortgage payments were the problem and they had no business owning a home. When their homes were up in value, they bragged to their friends about it. When their homes were foreclosed they blamed the banks. “Gee I didn’t know my home could be foreclosed if I don’t make my payments. It’s the banks’ fault. They made me sign the papers.” Those low income earners never blame themselves for their problems. They just blame the rich and expect the taxpayers to hand them a blank check. They think it’s their right to receive financial assistance, not a privilege. This is the wrong place to discuss politics. I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama wins tomorrow. The people in this country are becoming more and more dependent on financial assistance from the government and they will vote for Obama. Our ship will sink soon enough with this idiot in office.

  19. In Australia, voting is compulsory:- which means political party promotion is lower key and lower cost, making election far more accessible for the less well heeled candidates. The political party voted-in elects the leader, called the Prime Minister, it isn’t a separate election. It is quite amusing hearing about the United States presidential circus every 4 years.

  20. @Daryl
    “The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  21. hahahhahahahhahhehehheheh LOL my comment from last yr finally came back to bite you guys! Finally, you guys meet your match for this subject!Don’t blame the bank for approving a loan even though you know you can’t afford it!! Blame it on your peanut brain for taking that bait! I told you guys not to live above your means. If you can afford $500k loan instead only borrow $350k or $250k and have a plan to pay off earlier!!!!!! I will vote for who ever has the potential to bring back the economy. Without the rich 1% ,there will be no jobs you idiots. The avg joe will be avg because he is in his comfort zone. He won’t start a company anyway. The rich will always be rich because they know how to use money. The poor/avg will always be poor because they don’t know how to save and use money to make money. After 2 generations, they will still be poor. Always stay away from abortion issue because it’s just a distraction for the candidates. #1 agenda for the presidential candidate is to create jobs and lower taxes and the rest is BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and also we have to reduce the power of UNION workers. They get paid too much and will good benefits. Why are jobs moving aboard? Taxes too high, too much restrictions in America like environmental and red tapes and profit margin is just lower. Everything is about making money and I’m sicken tired of hearing people say ” why jobs are moving out of the country?” You just have to know the dynamic of the cause and effect.

  22. If you have ENTITLEMENT MENTALITY , Obama will win. Do you I used to work 7 days a week, 365 days a yr to pursue the American dream ? What is the American dream anyway? To me , having your own home paid off and having flexible time and work under my terms and when I want to work are my dreams!!!!!!!!!! Just sit there on your lazy ass and demand gov’t to help you then you really have entitlement issue. Name a few countries where ciitizens are hardworking 24/7 and the unemployment rate is zero. Seriously, that’s why communism will never work. Only works in “theory” but long term it will fail. Look at china! It’s a communist country on the shelf but really is a capitalist on the inside. Do not try to argue with me that China is 100% communist? Destroy and eliminate welfare totally will force those lazy asses to work okay. I’m freaking serious here. Why immigrants work so hard in America? They have nothing in their former countries so now they appreciate that they have a chance to excel in America. They are willing to work days and nights whereas typical Americans don’t want to work hard and just open their mouths wide begging for assistance. Chinese / asian Americans still have this unchanged thinking that if they study and work hard , they will be successful! Why do you think they dominated all the Ivy League colleges? Without affirmative Action Act , Chinese/ASian will TOTALLY DOMINATED all the best colleges. Remember asians only made of 4% of total U.S population. You always hear that Asians score high in grades but score low in executive position levels? Have you heard of bamboo ceiling or glass ceiling? Do you really think whites will like asians to be their boss? Don’t give me this crap that Asians can’t be on executive level? That’s why asians are always forming new businesses in America and be their own boss. The media only tells one side of the story. You mean you don’t have asian executives from Singapore, HK, Japan or China? I have always been self employed and loving it but with my personality do you think I can be an executive?


  23. I’m not from the US, so I won’t say much about my political view here.

    @Jenna: I’ve met Americans who love traveling and who have been living in different countries around the world and who have been working in China before but who were not liberal at all when it comes to political views. None of them stayed for longer than 2 years though. Don’t know if this is connected to their political views or not, but they had real problems adjusting to life in China.

    I also know an ABC living in NYC who’s very Republican and who dislikes everything Democrats say. In his view Democrats are the racists, not Republicans.

    The interesting thing for me to see is that there is a lot of black-white thinking when it comes to politics in the US. I guess this is due to having only two real choices for a presidential election, some sort of one-on-one fighting between good against evil so to say.

  24. @Mytwocents
    They blame the rich because the rich expose themselves and I mean rich Americans and you can add rich Asians to the list as well. No pay to performance at the executive levels. Why? Well connected boys and sometimes girls sit on the board and they appoint their friends as CEOs. Apothaker did nothing at HP but walked away with millions of ill gotten wealth. Not all the wealth earned by the rich are gotten by legal means. A lot of it is ill gotten. Yes, the Asians and immigrants work their butts out and as Bruce says they form their own company. If Obama wins today, blame the white American employers in Ohio. They tried to play a cynical game of laying off people. Foreign investment and businesses moved in and created jobs. White Americans did not. Whether this was a cynical move or misreading of the economy in the Midwest or Ohio I do not know. But, the fact is white American run firms moved out and the Chryslers run by the Italians, Chinese firms, British entities running away from draconian anti-skilled migration laws moved in. That is why the unemployment in Ohio is below 7%. Why Ohio became a hotbed of FDI I do not know but being in the profession, there is a research proposal out and unless the people are lying to pollsters (entirely possible based on past experience) Obama will win Ohio (again based on historical polling). Polling is never wrong unless folks sick and tired of getting too many calls lie.

    You make all valid points. However, the problem with the GOP is they are not really for free markets which I fully support. That is why you have a significant anti-immigration wing (not just illegal but even against letting brides and grooms of US citizens in) and anti-trade mercantlist wing…pretty isolationist. There is some isolationism in the Dems as well. However, based on rhetoric, it is clear the wing in the GOP is pretty vocal. These are the folks who are racist as well and mostly concentrated down south.

  25. What is most important for democracy is not that great fortunes should not exist, but that great fortunes should not remain in the same hands. In that way there are rich men, but they do not form a class.

    The surface of American society is covered with a layer of democratic paint, but from time to time one can see the old aristocratic colors breaking through.

    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  26. I just voted for Obama. My so called `liberal’ girlfriend voted for Romney. Her dad and grandpa are republicans who will vote for Romney for sure.
    Her reason? She trusted Romney more than Obama. Well, we live in different universes.

  27. Not to get *too* political, but a lot of us support Obama (or at least don’t support Romney) because the Republicans have a sexist and homophobic worldview.

    I really can’t stomach or respect anyone who thinks it’s OK to restrict marriage equality or allow basic rights for women to go under fire. Just can’t do it, and won’t do it. I don’t respect sexists and homophobes.

    You may not agree with those things personally, but if you voted Republican, you’re complicit. Complicit in bringing those who believe those things into power. That’s just as bad.

    I honestly think I’d divorce my husband if he ever took a turn to the political right on social issues. I just can’t imagine spending my life with someone who doesn’t respect basic ideas of equality for all – women, homosexuals…ALL. I don’t even want a friend who feels that way, or who would vote for people who feel that way.

  28. @Bruce
    It is about equality and civil liberty, more important than economic interests. Free market is a political concept. There is no real “free” market. If the vision of free market from Republican exists, you won’t be the one that benefits.
    I expect a leader to be at least smart and competent. Look at those clowns from Republican party talk. People like Sarah Palin is being laughed at oversees and created all kinds of stereotypes. Talking straight is the way to appeal to the poor and uneducated. Every stupid people can get on Fox News to talk to the country.
    This is the country that should be forward looking with less restraint of history and old class structure. The next minority president will be coming from Democratic party as well as the next woman president. Simple as that.

  29. To me personally, it’s not about Republican or Democrats at all. I need someone who will make sense in this new era. Let’s focus on how we can fix the economy first and all other issues are SECONDARY. People are having their homes foreclosed and 160 millions people are applying for food stamps and we have to focus on little things like HOMOS and ABORTION issues? Once, the economy is back to normal then other issues we can talk about them. I want someone who doesn’t play politics here. Get the job done and do it right. We have to look at a bigger picture here. It’s not about the two parties. You people have to understand that these two parties are working for the people NOT for themselves. It’s hard to run in political race because you have to deal with politicans, big corporations, Union workers, foreign policies and most importantly the economy!

  30. Dont support GOP because it has a significant racist wing and I have listed the names in the racist wing. One of those…Tom Tancredo…is now pushing marijuana in Colorado and that initiative will win. He recently said he wanted marijuana from Mexicans but otherwise Mexicans should stay in their own country,

  31. “Obama or Romney 2012? What Are The Political Leanings Of Chinese Men And The Western Women Who Love Them”
    Whatever the political leanings, there are many white people in the GOP and at least some among the Democrats who would rather make it illegal for white women and Asian men or for that matter Asian women and white men to date and marry. If you dont believe me try the evangelicals of MS and AL and try asking 50% of white people in those two states as well as elsewhere in the south what they think of marriages betweens whites and Asians.

  32. You people give it a rest will ya? So now Republicans are sexists, racists, and who only cares about the top 1% wealthy Americans and don’t like gays/lesbians and white women dating asian men? Oh my! I believe in equality for women. I’m not wealthy and I voted for Romney. Are all Democrats whiners?

  33. Voted for Romney in vain. But I voted with the believe that Romney is better for economy. My head wins over my heart. Obama is immigration and Asian friendly, I like him for that.

  34. @Alex – they are just politicians 🙂
    in fact, successful politicians can make large impact on people’s lifes, right or wrong.

  35. @cvaguy
    I can’t recall to that level detail. It is fascinating to see how smart people crack the system until they become over confident. No system can contain all the risks.

  36. All professional politician employ Machiavellian tactics at times. A functional democratic process supposes to bring them to their knees to do some right things on their way to power.

  37. Republican politicians are by and large sexists and homophobes, yes. (Some exceptions: Maine has had some OK Republicans, such
    as Olympia Snowe). If you are anti-gay marriage and anti-choice/anti-guaranteed equal pay, you’re a sexist and a homophobe.

    You may not be these things and vote Republican, but if you do, you are complicit in bringing people who are sexist/homophobic into office. That’s almost as bad.

    Using the term “homos” is quite hateful indeed. If I didn’t think you were homophobic before, Bruce, I think you are now. And for those couples denied benefits and hospital visitation/next of kin rights, it is not a small issue. For those of us with vaginas and uteruses, abortion and contraception access are not small issues. You can have your own priorities, that’s fine, but don’t tell ME that an issue I care about is not important.

    And, frankly, the economy is recovering. Slowly…but it is. I’m OK with it and doing quite well (but not wealthy -I don’t want to be if I have to sacrifice other things). I don’t think Obama’s done a bad job on the economy at all, in fact. So I’d rather focus on issues important to me.

    And not be complicit in voting for people with bigoted platforms.

  38. @Jenna cody – I vote for politician not for the party. If one politician has the means to move the society for the better, I would vote for him.
    NJ governor Chris Christie is republican, he did a great job for the state.
    Don’t just vote for party line, vote for indivitual. I know, that means research.

  39. I watch concession speech. Loser is as important, and messages they carry often become true later. Another candidate to watch is Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts, your future female president contender.
    Asians are the least political group in this country. Political activism is a tradition America inherited from England.

  40. Abortion , same sex marriage and contraception have been discussed for a long long time. I know women who are lesbians but what’s the big deal? I currently know a gay friend/client and his bf next to my office. seriously, where do you get the money to pay off/reduce the national debt in the trillions? By borrowing more money from China, Japan etc? I think about it this way.. Do you know why most american families are struggling for the past 5 yrs?? These people borrow too much on loans and use credit cards out of control. If a family has this kind of situation, you will finish soon ( need to file for bankruptcy). The national debt is just like a family’s debt for example. The other options are to cut spendings , increase taxes, or cut jobs ( federal /state level). Your kids and grand kids have to pay down the national debts . You will see. Of course, we don’t give a damn about the next generation right? I CARE ! I know what you guys mean on other issues are important, too but which candidate has everything in him to get the job done . I understand why Obama won. There are some things in this country that we are tired of already like the war in Iraq ( need to pull back our troops), health care etc. WE JUST HAVE TO BE POSITIVE. IT DOESN’T MATTER IF OBAMA OR ROMNEY WINS. We just need to take care of ourselves before we ask for gov’t assistance . Beside, most people like me don’t quality for assistance. You need to be crawling on the street first .

  41. What’s the big deal?

    Well, those “lesbians you know” don’t have the same rights you do – they lack basic human rights, in fact, in many American states. If they don’t live in a state with gay marriage rights and have life partners, they lack basic protection routinely afforded to heterosexual life partners – these are major rights: tax breaks, hospital visitation, ability to make end-of-life decisions, next of kin/estate rights, the right to be officially notified in case of the death of the other…that’s a big deal. Just because it doesn’t affect you doesn’t mean it’s not important.

    As for contraception/abortion, yes, it’s an old debate, and that’s the problem. WHY ARE WE STILL DEBATING IT?! It shouldn’t even be a question, and yet it is, and that’s the whole problem right there. As a woman, I care about my access to basic health care, including reproductive health. I care about a legislated guarantee of equal pay (which I shouldn’t have to fight for anyway, and yet do). This may not affect you but that does NOT mean it’s not a big deal. It’s a HUGE DEAL to those it affects.

    I care about public transportation, education and health care. These are BIG DEALS. I care about the fact that every time Romney put out an idea, it was so nonspecific as to be meaningless, and when it was more specific, it generally benefited the wealthy. I care more about the poor/lower classes, a group Romney said himself he’s “not that concerned about”.

    As for debt and the market, Clinton was a social democrat who balanced the budget – we can do it again. We don’t need so much military expenditure, for one, and I’m all for some closed tax loopholes and allowing tax breaks to expire (and even higher taxes in some areas – although I have no right to say this as I don’t live/work in America, I pay taxes in Taiwan). The economy will be OK – it’s already starting to right itself. I’m not too worried on that front and I don’t believe Romney would have done a better job. How could I even know, seeing as he didn’t seem to have much of a plan at all? His floaty-woaty non-specific ideas were hardly convincing.

    I don’t mind or care that you have different priorities (although I have ZERO respect for voting in those who want to institute sexist/homophobic policies, or who are sexist/homophobic themselves).

    But do not – DO NOT – tell me that I should have the same priorities as you. I don’t and won’t.

    DO NOT tell me that other priorities are “not important”. They are…just not to you.

    You don’t get a monopoly on deciding what the only important things should be. You can have your ideas, I can have mine, and I don’t have a problem with it unless you or others start getting intolerant/bigoted (and “who cares about homos” is pretty intolerant/bigoted – NOT COOL), but it is absolutely not OK to try and tell me that what’s important to me is not actually important.

  42. “According to exit polls, the electorate was 72 percent white — a group Obama lost with 40 percent to Romney’s 58 percent ”

    Let us face it. White people as whole do not favor Obama in USA. If you are a white American, you are likely for Romney.(60%odd). Obama wins due to reducing white majority status (from 90% to 70% voters).

  43. Obama makes up the huge deficit from hispanics and minorities. Just a lot of factors involved. America is changing and that’s good for everybody.


    I won’t talk about gay rights, health care or equal pay for women now. I’m afraid I might pull more things to say then this topic will get bigger and bigger. If you want those changes the way you want it to be then you really have to wait for decades. I can assure you my dear. Congress has to go thru the senate and house of representatives.. blah blah blah.

  44. aiyangxifu, please don’t make a racist issue out of this. I hope you know that journalists are very biased and most of things they write are not based on facts but based on their own opinions and views. Whites represent 63% of the US population and blacks 13%. If whites don’t like Obama, then how did Obama get elected? Getting votes from minorities alone is not enough to win 270 electoral votes.

  45. The math seems right to me. Most rural areas are red and predominately white. You have minorities votes for Obama plus urban and progressive white voters. Women favors Obama too.
    This is electoral system at work. However, the proportion of white voters could be higher unless all minorities overwhelmingly vote for Obama. One possible explanation is the real impact of Hispanic population. If Asians refuse to be more active in politics, they will end up being more marginalized with model minority status.

  46. @Bruce and Jenna
    One thing to keep in mind is the power of judicial branch. Supreme Court justices outlast any single president. Obama can push social changes, but a conservative court you see right now can push them back.
    America is also a federal system. Any significant change takes longer. We can’t become Sweden or Norway. But you can choose to live in California, Massachusetts or Mississippi.

  47. When I was poor and surviving, all I care about was food on the table. Now I start to think about social economics and its implication. There are many interest groups, all have their special demands. I support some, against some and indifference some. Gay right is the one I don’t support and don’t against. Fundamentally, it implies if people love each other, then it is family and should have the same right. All fine and well. But what if the people who love each are more than two? Should they have the same right? Before you support some things, think deep.

  48. I support equal rights for homosexuals except for marriage. Marriage should be reserved for heterosexuals only. What kind of a family can homosexuals have? Certainly not a normal one. They cannot reproduce so they can only adopt. What will their children think of them when they grow up? They’ll probably resent them. They’ll probably get bullied by other kids. Not healthy at all. Sorry I have to say it but it is what it is.

  49. @askdsk- I thought about mention that before, but then thought it might upset people.

    The society progresses one way or another. The question is what is good what is not. In fact, you can smoke weed legally now, just have to be in the right states. Is it good for us? These types of questions will keep coming back. Where should we draw the line then?

  50. askdsk, I think I might have heard about the same issues about kids with mixed race but I have never witnessed these issues myself. When I was growing up all kids with mixed race brag about it and they’re proud. Kids with homosexual parents will experience taunting and discrimination far worst than kids with mixed races I think.

  51. All those Obama supporters should be very happy now. How many truly believes he is a good president and how many voted for him simply because he was black or because he was lenient toward illegal immigration? I read a news article a few years ago about how local residents in San Diego had to send their kids to school like 20 miles away from their homes because the schools nearby were full. The schools were full because all the Mexicans crossed the border to send their kids to school for free. Is this what you really want? I’m disappointed how the Democrats would allow this and yet won’t do a thing about it. Sad.

  52. About woman should have equal pay. In principal, I agree, so should everyone else. But in reality, it is too subjective to measure two workers are doing the same job. Does the same job mean job function, or performance? How do you measure that?
    I had a friend and colleuge, we had different job functions. On paper, I didn’t need to do any of what she did. But she came to me for help all the time, simply because she knew I could do her job and better. The time I spent on her never counted as my performance, so I was paid for one job but did one and half. Should you tell me that both of us should get paid the same? On paper, we each have one similar level of jobs. In fact, I never get paid 3 times of her pay. Should I sue the company for discrimination then.

  53. I guess it is the same old question about guns too. Do guns kill or people kill? America is based on ideas of freedom protected by constitution. You can also argue the frontier days are over, and we shouldn’t have so many guns anymore. As a society we need to be more progressive, that is my view. Science has challenged religion over time. One of the best thing ever happened to western civilization is enlightenment. If America can roll back from probation, I can’t see why it won’t do the same for weed. Go through democratic process. That is also why I can’t stand the rhetoric from some republicans. Don’t demonize people though.
    The whole American democracy is an experiment. It is up to people (the majority) to decide what to do next.

    Obama is probably the most liberal in ages. The next president won’t be the same.

  54. @MyTwoCents – I heard a story: during culture revolution, one mixed child survived because her chinese parent told everyone that she had contagious skin disease and therefore her skin is white and her hair is brown. No one in school wanted anything to with her, so she never got bullied but no friends either.

  55. If you work in the office, of course, you will get the same pay. How about doing construction and warehouse work where you carry heavy load 70lbs and above? Can women do that kinds of jobs and get the same pay? Yes, I want women to work in construction and road work and get the same pay as men. Since you guys want to compare apple with apple here, so I continue. If you’re doctor or doctor’s assistant , a writer/journalist, accountant , of course , women and men should get the same pay. Some jobs are not right for men or women and vice versa you know. If you tell me to clean someone’s ass in the hospital which I can’t do unless you give me a ten ft pole with water hose dude :). Have you guys tried working on commission before? Let’s put everyone on a commission base pay here instead of a monthly salary. See if you’re going to move your ass. The faster you close the deal and the faster you move your asss , you will get a big check. Even some jobs you have the same title and the same job descriptions, you just don’t get paid more even if both are men. Guns don’t kill okay,people kill! I’m a gun owner and I have a 1500 lbs safe . Citizens with conceal weapon permit don’t go out there and kill people okay. Criminals with guns kill because they don’t care about laws and their guns are not registered (illegal from black market). I carry a 1911 .45 pistol most of the time wherever I go and you don’t see I drive around to kill others.

  56. @Bruce
    We don’t live in a hunter-gatherer society anymore. Also, check out Israeli army. No wonder feminists exist.

  57. askdsk,

    How can only 4% of U.S. populaton rise to the top in education? I used to work in a company before and one coworker told me that white coworkers gave their asian manager hard times because they just couldn’t obey orders/instructions from their asian manager. So, they promoted another white assistant manager to control other white salespersons/workers. Everything I say here is true and it’s up to you guys to determine fact from friction. Most media won’t tell you whyyyyyyy asians score so high in academics but not so many asian executives in the coporate world. The reason is that non asians won’t acknowledge you as their superior (boss). Same reasons are very lame why asians are not in the executive positions that we take orders well by authority. That is just lame. With all these education backing you up, you will not be promoted as senior manager/VP postions. You mean asians don’t know how to express orders in a workplace? You mean asians don’t know how to communicate in English with non asians? You know that you have to pass a speech class in college in order to get a degree correct? If I’m an executive , see if I know how to run and communicate with my workers in an efficient matter. I really don’t care if you asians, blacks, whites or green, you have to go with company’s policies or else I’ll fire your ass period. If asians are not at the executive level, how can they run their businesses in America ? Hey Hey hey, let’s bring this issue as our top and #1 priority to the next presidential campaign for not discriminating non whites for pursuing executive positions in the corporate world and make it a federal bill (SIGNED). I have more things to comment but I’m just testing you guys here. Please ban me for bringing up this real issue. If others just don’t respect you , it doesn’t matter what kind of education or leadership you possess.

  58. @Bruce
    What you said is exactly why business can’t be “free” to do business. Business by nature is self-interested.
    Ceiling for minority advancement is largely due to cultural barrier and hidden discrimination. Corporate where minority can rise to the top most likely has good diversity program. Multinational companies also do better when business goes to various markets.
    Asians’ cultural heritage help us gain mobility through education. That education is essential. But Asians will have to overcome additional barriers and follow different path than whites for advancement. Factors cited to hinder Asians include servitude, lack of teamwork,less vocal, lack of interests in law and politics.

  59. Let me paint the perfect picture for you! He is the opposite of ” Asians include servitude, lack of teamwork,less vocal, lack of interests in law and politics.” What is the possibility of him being on top? Yes, I agree with you that asians have to overcome ADDITIONAL barriers in any fields including sports like basketball. Well, if we can’t exit at #5 , we can go to exit #6,7 or 10 to our destination. It’s not an easy journey but it’s worth the ride.

  60. Jenna,

    I understand what you’re trying to say but we just don’t want to expand the topic or else it will never end again. You have to understand in most fields ,women are making more than men. I know a woman and she’s the director of a hospital . She made seriously money . Women are going back to school more now to upgrade their degrees.

  61. The reason why women are over-educated is about the same why Asians are over-educated. But white women do better than any minority group in general.

  62. http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/11/hail-to-quants-pundit-fail.html#disqus_thread

    Math genius predicted election result. But their lack of aggressive personality screw them over over again. Yes, Asian engineer types.

    Look at this comment:

    Yan Shen Stephen Hsu • 2 hours ago −
    “Just as personality factors are largely independent of cognitive factors…”

    Is this necessarily true? I get the impression from looking around the world that people who are significantly skewed towards M often are shy, quiet, passive, meek math geeks who barely know how to stand up for themselves, while people skewed towards V have fiery, aggressive personalities(the stereotype of the quiet and self-effacing engineer versus say the boisterous and argumentative lawyer comes to mind).

    I’m often amazed that the most vocal opponents of anti-Asian racism these days are Jewish Americans such as Lee Siegel rather than Asian Americans themselves, who are far more likely to offer up suggestions that Asian Americans should either accept the racist status quo in this country or return to the land of their origin…

  63. This is a lesson all you asian people have to learn again and again! Please fight back. You know once you open your idea and voice, people tend to respect you and understand you more. If you are just going to shut up 24/7, you will be bullied. I’m serious. Try it. I mean sending your bullies to the hospital is our last option but first make them scared of you . Inform them and warn them before you take action and we will accept the consequences that we’ll cause. I’m serious. Try it. It will make you stronger and stronger and become fearless. Anybody can be a TICKING TIME BOMB including me or you if you push the right button.


  64. I hope you Democrats are proud of yourself. The layoff bomb is here thanks to Obama’s healthcare plan. You wanted change, so change you get. Thousands of workers will be laid off.

    “The administration and its Democratic allies on Capitol Hill attempted to punish Deere, Caterpillar, Verizon and ATT in 2010 for disclosing how the costs of Obamacare taxes were hitting their bottom lines — even though they were simply following SEC disclosure requirements. The White House also tried to silence insurers who dared to inform their customers about how Obamacare was driving up premiums.”


  65. @Bruce
    You are absolutely right. Better to be feared than be loved. Classic example is Chirman Mao vs President Jiang. Mao is feared and respected by American. Jiang (nationalist) is loved and contempted by American. Why?

    Mao had nerve to kick american ass during Korean War. Had Jiang was Chinese leader, he would haved chickened away at any American aggression.

    Do not seek other’s love, but fear.

    Fear = respect unfortunatly.

  66. @Jenna Cody – are you seriously or naively believe the job offer letter for college graduate would have different amounts based on gender, in the same year, same school, from the same employer? Companies nowadays go out of their way to promote female ranking officers to the point many of them are incompetent. Went to a training program, the female MD instructor was clearly unable to articulate complex business concepts. Yet many better and capable VPs can not be promoted simply because they are men. It is a known fact that women enjoy affirmative actions.
    In my company, if a woman is under paid, chances are she is bottom perfumer. A man would get fired should he become bottom perfumer. If you are a boss, who would you rather fire: a man who could find another job (due to better skill) and hence has little risk of litigation or a woman who could not find another job and the only recourse is law sue?

  67. As an employee, you are the bottom line. The government has responsibility to provide education and health care to its citizens.
    When the bottom line needs to be increased, your job will be shipped oversees? You don’t think there is something wrong with the logic? Workers’ rights shouldn’t be protected?
    When there is too much inequality, you can kiss any democracy goodbye.

  68. @Cap – Exactly right. Strong leader often makes people afraid of their reactions.
    You would rather make people either hate you or love you, than being invisible. Speak up, voice you opinion and interrupt others just to jump in, and you will find people start to respect you.
    From my observation, some Asian coworkers are often sit on their ass work all day for something they are told to do. Never talk in meetings, afraid of making mistakes. But life is short, make noise, make bold move, make yourself known and make some mistakes. Learn from mistakes, learn from handling mistakes. If you should fall, make a spectacular fall. You can always start over at a new company, so big deal. Pretty soon, you will find people start to respect your opinions, regardless you are Asian or not.

  69. Beijing people GDP has reached developed nations.

    统计:北京人均GDP达中上等 接近富裕国家



  70. Cap,

    We don’t encourage others to beat up another person. We just encourage to fight BACK. When you push a person to the wall and there is no other way out, you leave that person no choice but to eliminate the bullies later on. We have a Chinese say that ” we fear no bad people. we only fear kind/good person”. If you are a wise person, you will figure out that meaning.

    I really don’t see how healthcare is not a tax increase with the president’s proposal. This time I have to pull all my hair and any types of hair to pay for it. With this kind of economy, I don’t think you can fight for a higher salary seriously. It’s not easy to make a 6 figures income anymore. I want to know who is self employed and owed a business here? Ask yourself a question . Is it harder to run a business now? there you go!

  71. Interesting that it’s men insisting Jenna Cody doesn’t know what she’s talking about and that gender wage differences aren’t a problem. Do you guys have actual dependable statistics?

    Bruce’s examples of not being “able” to do certain jobs was laughable. You can’t be a nurse because you don’t WANT to wash another person’s butt, not because you aren’t physically able to do it. And are you somehow implying women deserve that kind of job, do it better just because of their gender? And are you saying that they get paid a lot for it? Um… think again. Or find some dependable statistics.

    Like Jenna cody said, you guys are terribly naive. Not to mention condescending. Bruce’s way of “explaining” things to Jenna Cody and calling her “my dear”? I don’t think I’ve read a more sexist condescending post in a long time. Get over yourself, Bruce.

    I know the election is over but to get to the original post, I support Obama. My Chinese boyfriend also does (not that he could vote), and so does every Chinese friend we have. Why? They said things like Romney didn’t like China, would probably start a war with China, lied about China, etc. Are those things true? I don’t know for sure, of course. But I think it’s telling that that is their impression of Romney, anyway.

    My own support of Obama didn’t rest just on Romney’s perceived antagonism towards China. Like Jenna Cody, I think the economy is on the way up and it wasn’t the biggest issue for me. But for those of you who seem to think it’s the only thing that matters, just look at numbers. In 2001 there was a projected surplus of almost 6 trillion. Economy went down, knocking the projection to about 2 trillion. Bush, over 8 years, through spending (mostly on military) and tax cuts knocked the projected 2 trillion surplus down to about a 4 trillion deficit. Interest knocked it down another trillion. Obama’s 4 years knocked it down a trillion. So… take out interest and economy and you have Obama: -1 trillion, Bush: -6 trillion. http://www.upworthy.com/the-complete-guide-of-what-to-blame-for-our-debt-problem-brought-to-you-by-math?g=2

    I also am sick to my stomach at the racist and homophobic comments made here. That a gay couple won’t have a “normal” family because they have to adopt? WTF?! So a barren heterosexual couple who adopts is also not “normal”? So adoption is somehow bad? So a couple who can have children but decides not to because there are already orphans in need of parents and adopts is not “normal”?

    Kids will get teased because their parents are gay? Um… kids get teased for a lot of reasons having nothing to do with their parents. And there are issues that children of heterosexual couples get teased for anyway. Kids are driven to SUICIDE from teasing due to weight and income. Even if being teased because of the gender of their parents became as serious as those issues what are you saying? Just because they will be teased the family shouldn’t exist? So, families with overweight children shouldn’t exist? Poor families shouldn’t exist? (Although from MyTwoCents’ comments, it actually seems like you think that… all your comments about poor people not “deserving” things… are you serious?)

    Honestly I think a child of a homosexual couple who has two parents who love him or her will be much better off than a child of a heterosexual couple whose parents ignore them, abuse them, fight or get divorced, etc. Not that homosexual couples would never fight or get divorced, but can you honestly not see how completely homophobic and wrong it is to say that JUST BECAUSE the parents are homosexual and not heterosexual that alone makes the kid somehow worse off?

    Like Jenna cody, even though not all Republicans are this way, I would still never vote for a party to come into power whose politicians say the most idiotic things like you can’t get pregnant from rape or a woman is like a cow and we make cows carry calves full term no matter what.

    The sentiment I hear from Republicans I know personally, from comments I read online such as on this thread, and from speeches from Republican politicians turn me completely off to the Republican party.

  72. http://roxanegay.tumblr.com/post/35313776673/lets-educate-ourselves-about-welfare-and-poverty-so-we

    Also this. Read the link inside too.

    As for the new health care regulations, if I lived in America I’d be happy to pay more for it. I now live in a country with socialized insurance (not care – care can be private or public) – Taiwan – and IT IS THE BOMB. It is absolutely the best. I will never, EVER go back to America’s shitty “system”, unless it improves. The ACA is a start to that. My husband is Canadian and I’m a Taiwanese permanent resident, so I don’t have to!

    I also agree with everything Sara says. It’s sickening to see the racism, sexism and homophobia in these comments (and in comments on previous posts). All of you who made such comments should really be ashamed of yourselves. It’s sick and sad and makes me not want to read the comments on this blog anymore, because while Jocelyn’s cool and some commenters are cool, others among you just suck giant balls.

  73. I completely sympathize with women who are complaining about discrimination and no equal pay for equal work or for that matter equal pay for equal qualifications. However, white women are not that unselfish. When it suits them, they cry discrimination from white males. When it does not, they complain about affirmative action screwing them although the white females have been the number one beneficiaries of AA. All the folks so far who have sued to overturn AA are white females, Jennifer Gratz, Barbara Grutter, Leslie Hopwood and more recently Abigail Fisher. Fisher is not that qualified, and if she succeeds in overturning AA in the Supreme Court, Asian Americans denied admission over unqualified whites at the University of Texas should sue!

  74. “I hope you Democrats are proud of yourself. The layoff bomb is here thanks to Obama’s healthcare plan. You wanted change, so change you get. Thousands of workers will be laid off.”
    Wanna bet? Layoffs will happen because of fiscal cliff long before Obamacare is even implemented.
    ““The administration and its Democratic allies on Capitol Hill attempted to punish Deere, Caterpillar, Verizon and ATT in 2010 for disclosing how the costs of Obamacare taxes were hitting their bottom lines —”
    American employers are not creating jobs anyway and whoever they laid off have been grabbed by foreign Corporations and Chrysler is now a foreign corporation. Ask the citizens of Ohio whether their white American fellow citizens are creating jobs or whether they are working for Germans, Japanese, Koreans, Italians and even the Chinese.

  75. Oh, Joe. No, we don’t. Maybe you have one or two anecdotes of white women complaining about affirmative action, but I can assure you that as a white woman, most of us don’t think that’s a big issue working against us. Generally speaking I am in favor of it until it is no longer needed. I feel it is still needed, so I’m in favor of it for now.

    And I don’t particularly like people telling me how I feel – or telling me how my group feels. That’s a little too close to ‘mansplaining’ territory for my taste.

    Now, that’s just me (and every white woman I know, and my sense of the general sentiment of white women, being one myself), but do you have statistics to back up the idea that white women are against affirmative action, or did you just make that up or base it on a few anecdotes?

  76. @Jenna
    I have a big problem with white women to be the group benefit the most from AA. That is far from the original intent of AA.
    I see you first as white and second as woman. I agree with almost everything you said about women, but it does not seem to me you care about anyone else besides that. Your values to me are as white as they can be. Either you ignored your own blind spots or you came to the wrong blog.

    Obama is also a disappointment. He does not do enough to bring racial equality to this country. The fact he is black makes him the president afraid of talking about race. We can partially blame this on republican party too. But he carries the hope of minorities too, not just women. He gets more votes from minorities than white women.

  77. @Jenna Cody
    Not referring to white women on board here in general. But, white women as on this board interested in non-white men at least here in the US are few and far between…very few. Many white women in the US south wont even touch a non-white skin with people such as Melanie Gao Parsons extraordinary exceptions.

  78. @Jenna Cody..

    “Armed with this information, affirmative action activists and women’s organizations crafted strategies to defeat Washington’s I-200. While some organizations focused on the misleading nature of the measure, which posed as a “civil rights initiative,” it soon became apparent that the strategies relying on exposure of the “deception” would fall short of victory in the context of Washington’s battleground. The strategy of exposing the deceptive labeling of the initiative, designed primarily to educate voters about the actual intent of the measure was derived from the lessons of a 1997 Houston, Texas campaign to end affirmative action programs in the state. Political analysts credited the mayor of Houston with successfully defeating an anti-affirmative action proposition by adding language to clarify that the city’s “civil rights” initiative would eliminate affirmative action. But such a “truth in labeling” intervention only worked because Houston had a majority of people of color with whites making up only 10 percent of the city population. There, whites supported the proposed ban on affirmative action by a 2-1 margin, with 72 percent of white men in favor and 54 percent of white women in favor. Thus, it was the overwhelming opposition in the African American community that voted against the measure by a 9-1 margin that saved affirmative action in Houston.”
    “More surprisingly, approximately 51% of white women in Washington voted to end affirmative action.”

  79. Jenna Cody is at wrong blog? Not really. She would be smacked hard in non-Asian forum. She is not AM/WF couple. But she like to comes here to patronize every body. It is because you guys let her to do so.

    If she comments on white forum, she would have been in tear already. She cames to Taiwan to bully not here to respect. Her rude behavior is too tolerated in Asian enviroment.

    If people tell Manny to shut up, why not her?

  80. @Joe
    Good article. It pays to be white, AA or not. Social equality has been achieved to much greater extent for whites. It has been a strong argument that AA puts different groups not on the same playing field since the day AA was created.
    The bigger questions should be addressed is how to protect minority interests in a democracy where majority rules. If America owes debts to certain minority groups, who should pay for them? We don’t come to these problems with neutral values. It is important to know the other side of the story.

  81. Jenna,

    If you’re going to be sensitive, I think this blog is not for you. How are we going to bring this blog to the next level if everyone is so damn sensitive? Jenna, are you a bisexual? You’re not even a lesbian or bi ,why so sensitive? Even you fight for gay rights harder than gay people combined. Is the phrase ” HOMO” (homosexual) another “N” word ? THere are lots of words that whites use against ASian/Chinese in America which I don’t want to say to ignite another subject.

    The ways how women and men think are very different. You don’t expect everybody to vote or think the same on an issue okay. You guys have women in your lives , so you know what I mean.

  82. 1.) No, I didn’t come to the wrong blog – Jocelyn’s great. I’m reading the wrong commenters. If you think saying sexist and homophobic things, or denying truth (like pay inequality) is “moving things forward” and “discussing the issues”, you’re just plain wrong. Sexism, homophobia and denying facts never move anything to the next level. Of course I’ll call you out on that sort of thing – because it’s not cool, it’s just sad. If you’re going to get all belligerent over someone taking issue at your sexism and homophobia, that’s your problem.

    2.) I didn’t say AA helped white women. I don’t think it does – but just because one vote was 51% of women in Washington doesn’t mean that most white women support the end of AA. Whether you think AA should end or not is irrelevant – it’s not something I feel strongly about because it doesn’t affect me, and I’m not really into discussing it: those who are affected by it will be able to better suss out that issue. I personally think it works OK *for now* but it would be better if it weren’t necessary (in fact, it’s kind of sad that it is still necessary, because I agree, it pays to be white regardless of AA). All I said was that as a white woman I am not against AA.

    3.) Y’all are being really sexist and homophobic (and to some degree racist) – if you feel I’m “patronizing” you over that, again, that’s your problem: you’re the one making hateful statements.

    4.) Yes, “homo” IS a pejorative term on par with calling a black person the N-word. It’s REALLY offensive and I suggest you stop using it unless you want to be labeled a homophobe.

    5.) No, I don’t just care about values that benefit me – I’m not bisexual or gay but I feel strongly about LGBT rights because I have many connections in the LGBT community, and because it’s the right, progressive and human-rights oriented thing to do. In the 1800s, not only blacks were abolitionists. What did white abolitionists have to gain from abolishing slavery? Nothing, but they fought for what was right. The civil rights movement was not only fought by minorities – whites joined the fight, because it was the right thing to do. Feminism has been a philosophy not only of women, plenty of men have believed in it and helped fight for women’s rights – because it’s the right thing to do. So I may not be gay, but LGBT equal rights is just the right thing to do.

    6.) Yes, of course I think *my* values are better – because my values are inclusive. They are not sexist, they are not racist, they are not homophobic. What, do you think I should “respect” views that are racist, sexist and homophobic? Do you think I should seriously consider the idea that gays don’t deserve marriage equality, or that it’s OK not to support it? No way – that’s wrong and I won’t consider it as a viewpoint worthy of respect. BECAUSE IT’S NOT. It’s hateful. Do you really think I’ll go against actual statistics on pay inequality and consider “the other side”? NO – because statistics are on my side. A side without evidence is not a side to seriously consider, and that’s been the Republican party’s problem this whole election.

    7.) I don’t think Obama was a disappointment, although I agree he could do more to advance racial equality. Overall I was satisfied with his presidency. So…speak for yourself. Romney’s views were so sickening and against everything I believe in that I never, ever, in a million years would have voted for him. I don’t think he’s evil but I do think hed’ve been a terrible president.

  83. I have another agenda here for the nation! If you don’t let minorities on executive seats when they are qualified for those positions, you are a RACIST!!! Personally, I know how sensitive people are going to vote. You know we need a Chinese Al Sharpton in America to tackle every racist comments like “CHINK IN ARMOR” and every hate criminals, robberies, murders commit by non asian. Seriously, We need to shake this country. We don’t even have a voice for asian/chinese in America. We have a few but not enough. You think we’re are bunch of insensitive asian men on this blog BUT wait until you get a real taste of comments coming from people in real life.

    I feel like the line to see the doctor will be very very very long if this health care bill is going to pass. Doctors aren’t allowed to go to another countries to practice by the U.S. Gov’t . Yup, it’s true. If you’re going to have tremendous pain, you have to wait for 4 to 5 hrs in order to see the doctor. Some treatments for cancer patients will be controlled by the gov’t. Doctors will get paid less and I don’t think students will want to be doctors anymore. Most doctors will have to come from other countries ( cheaper). Anyway, think about it overnight and call me in the morning :). Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh baby !!! LOL 🙂


  84. Jenna, how come you don’t fight for asian/chinese rights? We didn’t see you do anything here. Prove us wrong!

    Yup, it’s missing something .I suggest that we still continue on this topic or else people think we are running away. I told you guys it’s not easy to argue over issues because these people haven’t been there before. They think it’s right but instead they are dead wrong. Why do you think we have associations and communities of all kind.

    Why blacks can call each other the “N” word and get away with it?

  85. Everyone entitles an opinion. I think it is better for reader to see both sides of the arguments to draw their own conclusion.
    Yes, I will argue with Department of Labor. I do that with regulators. Here is why: the data published are the work of few people, don’t assume the accuracy b/c it is published by government. Ask yourself why government revise GDP number often? You would be naive and green to trust the conclusion published by government.
    The only comparable data is entry level salary, after that performance factor, personality factor, gap year, and the desire to learn and grow factor will affect your income, and you lost the base to compare. The labor department takes all payroll divided by number of worker to get average. But we know the longer you work, the more you get in general due to increase in income every year. Do you see average age of male worker and female worker data? Do you see average work years data, since women tend to have gap years which stop income growth?

  86. @Bruce
    That is not what is missing. I actually like Jenna’s comment for the most part. She clearly had been pushed to corners by people.
    You don’t get most of what she says. But I don’t think I can close the gaps either.

  87. I am pretty gullible in many ways simply I don’t know what is going on in the area. But once I know what is really going on in a area, I am no longer that gullible.
    I admire people feel passionate about certain subject, but that very passion compound with misinformed facts will drag the society into a unintended direction.
    If you are passionate about unequal pay, Asian is the single largest victim as a group if you count the hourly income and the intensity of work load. Read Mighty Maggie’s blog and count how often her husband travels to work, yet his income was not at the same level as white counter part, judging from house they buy and money they spend.
    Asian tends to put the blame on themselves instead of everyone else. Good and bad. Bad is we invite unequal treatment because people can get away with it. Good is that by doing more we get better and eventually cream will be floating on top. Mind you, more Asians are into politics for a very good reason.

  88. @cvaguy
    “I admire people feel passionate about certain subject, but that very passion compound with misinformed facts will drag the society into a unintended direction”
    Standing at the center of western science (natural and social) is the idea of Objectivism. But nothing is value neutral. If I am a man who does a research on women issue, I am likely to have my own male bias. Race is the same thing. Some people are more conscious of these bias.
    I think you will like this book – http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728

  89. I understand what Jenna is trying to say. You can’t change things over the internet. You need to set examples by making into LAWS. Yes, L.A.W.S ! You can talk here all you want but I think it’s useless. First of all, I don’t like to argue because I’m beyond that a long time ago. If you guys pay me , then I’ll argue with ya.

  90. Here is an pay gap study by two women. I agree with the data, but not the conclusion. I encourage readers to draw they own conclusion by reading all the facts.


    Read carefully, you will find:
    1) it implies the entry level pay are the same.
    2) Two third of the pay gap can be explain with, I quote “we find
    that women’s choices—college major, occupation, hours at work—do account for part of the pay gap”
    3) The remaining pay gap, the authors conclude “But about one-third of the gap remains unexplained, suggesting that bias and discrimination are still problems in the workplace.”

    “Suggesting” means guessing ? Basically we don’t know, we conclude anyway?
    But wait, if you all get paid the same, why women work less ? Would that be considered as part of performance, willingness to get work done, or eager to learn and grow ? For those of you ladies who are managers, you know what I am talking about, do you? If you have dead line and you ask your team to do it for you, “A” wants to go home today so “A” puts it off for tomorrow give you little time to look over, mean while “B” stays late and get it done sends it out over night. Who do you and should you reward for more pay next year ? Here I use “A” and “B”, which is gender blind.

    I asked my blue eyed friend “why don’t you choice computer major ? you can easily find a job since companies are dying to find female programers and you will get much better pay due to that”. She looked at me “But it is too hard for me”. I was speechless.

    Notice there are very few male elementary teachers. If you do get one, chances are all parents want their kids to be in his class. Ask yourself why is that. It is way to easy to blame everyone else, but oneself.

    Again, draw your own conclusion, I am just trying to present different side of the argument. Peace.

  91. @cvaguy
    The data cited might tell one side the story only. Each side of the debate will provide studies to back them up. From what I read, I think pay gap exists for sure. You can imagine how hard it is to factor gender in private sector.
    I will add to the other two things you mentioned. Stem fields are male dominant and provide high paying jobs. In fact, those fields are dominant by Asian and white males. Entry barriers are higher for women because they are under represented. But if they do, it can be harder to gain advancement. They also have unique advantage for being a woman during recruitment. As for Asian, they are over represented in work ranks, but under represented in leadership positions.
    The same scenario exists for a male teacher In public sector like education, traditionally dominated by white women. But males don’t want to enter this field because it is “feminine” and has moderate pay scale. They also have unique advantage for being role models and faster career advancement, especially true for white males. Teaching jobs provide better security, good social status and decent pay to attract larger number of women (mostly white) to put them into middle class.

  92. @askdsk – I may have make a wrong impression of denying pay gap. It does exist. That is no a question. But the question is what attribute to it. It is wrong if that is due to discrimination. But if it is due to the choice of women, I don’t know what to say.
    Same goes for Asian lack of leadership, how do we decouple the factor of discrimination and the factor of ourselves?

  93. @cvaguy
    I see where you are going now. The question is how much the pay difference attributes to gender alone. Same as race, gender plays a role. You might be paid less because you are a woman. If that is so, isn’t that discrimination based on gender?
    Today your race and gender do not affect you directly as it used to. But we can’t talk about equal opportunities without discussing race and gender. Gender is not unique to America, but racial issues are.
    I don’t know how much people can put a value on discrimination. The effects of discrimination tell the story.
    Being an Asian, how you advance without losing all your identify is the question. I am not white, and can’t be either. The fact someone makes me “white” is discrimination. Social policies have to be in place to protect women and minorities. As far as I can tell, the constitution is color blind. This is a country that has terrible racial history and huge amount of injustices done to minorities. You think China does not teach cultural revolution to their kids. I want schools here teach all kids about racial history. By promoting awareness, we can learn to tolerate and prevent discrimination.

    Meritocracy can’t be achieved without taking consideration of race and gender either. Going to a mostly white school can give a kid advantage. If Facebook has a all white board with one woman represented, don’t you see a problem considering how diverse that work force is? To me, that is discrimination based on race.

  94. @askdsk – We all observe the lack of women and Asian in leadership position. But we don’t know the cause. We can not just conclude it is discrimination simply because we can’t explain it.
    At work, It is very hard to tell if it is they don’t like your personality or they discriminate you. Culture difference certainly does not help. Pulling out big gun and outcry fault will not get you any where. It is individual’s job to reach out and make that critical connection with upper level management in order to get that promotion.
    There is no absolute equality, in real world. If the pay gap due to discrimination is 5%, I don’t give a danm about it. It may fall well within the margin of error of any measurement. I can tolerate up to 15% of that type of pay gap knowing I could make up the short fall by work 15% harder.

  95. @cvaguy
    It is the judgement you will need to make. Historically Asians are not discriminated against to the same extent as blacks. We are model minority in this country. The thinking to maintain that status quo has hindered the ability to advance further. To the same measure, many white women won’t challenge white supremacy either. The way of your thinking (not meant to insult) also explains lack of activism in Asian community.

  96. @cvaguy
    The most integrated Asian group in this country is Japanese Americans. Granted the fact immigration from Japan has stopped, if they were not sent to camps in WII, I doubt you will see them become “true” Americans.

  97. @askdsk – I think I have touched the key points except this one :
    How many of us actually went to social skill class when we were young?
    Apprently our parents think social skill is either not important or we can pick it up easily. The emphasis is always academic. While academic skill makes us good worker, it alone will not advance us to upper level management.
    Like any other skills, social skill needs to be taught by coaches or your parents (if your parents are upper managers) It also requires lots of practise and homework.
    Management skill is in fact a type of social skill, you are a manager not because someone give you a position. It is in fact earned. Meaning you behave like a manager material and have all the connection and you have the title.
    I observed so many Asian coworkers that behave in the way that no one think they are manager material. Could that explain the lack of Asian leadership?

  98. @cvaguy
    Hard questions. I am interested to know what others have to say.

    Social skills are acquired differently from motor skills. Chinese education traditionally emphasizes on rote learning and repetition. I think it is still true today. But the attitude is also changing. That is why there is backlash against Tiger Mother in China. Chinese education has merits. It teaches good work ethics and the style of teaching works well for certain subjects. The biggest problem in the way of social development is lack of free time. I did not see enough kids playing. I mean simply play to enjoy a normal childhood. Most social developments are acquired through playing either by oneself or with other people. I think most Chinese children are over parented too. Let kids be kids. Free play is also learning.

    When we say there are not enough Asian leaders, we are talking about America. There are plenty of Asian leaders in Asia. Leadership is also cultural. It requires cultural capital. As an immigrant or minority, you have to overcome cultural barriers. Leadership is acquired through the opportunity to lead. If your company does not pay attention to minority leadership development to accommodate an increasing diverse working environment, you will not be able to lead by example and get the mentorship needed. If your management does not put empower minority leaders, you will have hard time to overcome resistance from subordinates. It is also a self-enforcing cycle. Where do you get the mentorship from a minority leader when there are none in place?
    We all need to be in charge of our own development. One of the challenges as you observed is lack of initiative to seek help. You probably have done much better yourself. As you have said, your parents matter, and their education level and career achievements do affect yours. But I think it is even more important to be in the right place.
    While you are not exempt from the competition to advance, minority has to overcome additional barriers. Jeremy Lin mentioned he has to proved himself over and over. That is true to the real corporate world. Studies show minority middle managers tend to stay at their level longer than white counterparts before reaching executive suites.
    As a member of a model minority, you can often be overlooked and assumed no help warranted. Why do you need help when you have been so outstanding, right? Asian kids at school often under pressure to outperform to be normal. You get the idea.

    And nothing beats positive attitude you already possess.

  99. You people always say the economy is getting better? Please tell us here which sectors. You are talking about gov’t sector or private sector?? Of course , you say that because you are currently working right now. If you still have a job, you tend to say this ” beside the economy is getting better”. Tell that to people who have lost businesses , jobs, and homes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! See if you will say the same if you’re jobless now. I’m seeing businesses closed down and many people are working part time or still looking. Lots of people are doing loan modification but get denied. As Americans , we tend to forget this hardship again and get back to the same old habit of spending over their budget. People want jobs and provide for their families. They don’t want to hear BS. If you live in a bad areas, you could get killed, robbed or beat up. Criminals get desperated ,too

  100. “You people always say the economy is getting better? Please tell us here which sectors. You are talking about gov’t sector or private sector?? ”
    Try Ohio and Michigan. The economy is getting better because of foreign investment. An employee working for an American employer who got laid off generally got rehired in less than three months in Ohio. Why? Because of foreign employers moving in. Let us please get off the high horse and get it off our minds that American employers are the center of the universe or the world. They are not even the center of Ohio anymore.

  101. “The most integrated Asian group in this country is Japanese Americans. Granted the fact immigration from Japan has stopped, if they were not sent to camps in WII, I doubt you will see them become “true” Americans.”
    Mostly they live in Hawaii and California. There are plenty of Asian leaders running the state of Hawaii. So, we dont have to go as far as Asia to find Asian leaders. Try Mazie Hirono the newest senator from Hawaii.

  102. “I don’t think it does – but just because one vote was 51% of women in Washington doesn’t mean that most white women support the end of AA. ”
    Sorry. My mistake. It says that a majority of the white women who voted opposed AA. Others by sitting at home were equally compliicit whether they protested the subsequent abolition of AA or not.

  103. http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

    This is a long article about elite schools admission agaist asian students. However, I am not 100% agree the statistics. The investigation into the admission procedure is none conclusive, and the story I know did not support the claim nether.
    It is very hard to separate discrimination from admission office and none leadership trait of ourselves. Same to the discrimination against women and the chooses women make themselves.
    Elite schools are looking for leaders, not engineers. Excellence in academic does not auto qualify one a leader. So it is hard problem to face, and we all have to make an effort to address the issue.
    I was asked why Asian supports democrat since people have income more than 100k generally support republican. I don’t know the answer. Could that because we are thinking along the line of engineering?

  104. The article is a critique for elite school admission in general. Asians and Jewish are used to illustrate paradox. Leadership is subjective, and SAT is more objective. You need both in admission considerations. Education is an integral part for social justice in any society. The article has done a good job showing how the system is flawed and the way social reproduction works. I think people will try to game the system in any society. A truly diverse classroom suppose to benefit everyone. Asians are not the only group that cares about academics, but the way Tiger Mother conduct her business requires reexamination. Keep the spirit, but change the act.

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