One Introvert, Finding Refuge (And Love) in China | Speaking of China

136 Responses

  1. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 13, 2012 at 7:31 am | | Reply

    That’s lovely, although it would be wise to remember that many outgoing, brash, talkative Chinese women feel bound and restricted by social mores that look favorably on quiet women and unfavorably on extroverted or outspoken ones.

    I think it’s great that there are different kinds of people in the world – introverts, extroverts and everyone in between – but never forget that cultures that prize gentility, quiet, shyness, sweetness and tenderness in women do so not because they believe, without any links to any other worldviews, that women who have these qualities are ideal. They often (not always in an individual level, but often, and generally on a social level) believe those things because they’re linked to a sexist worldview.

    “Gentle”, “quiet”, “sweet”, “shy”…these all sound great, and many great people are those things.

    But so often those are code words for “submissive”, “supplicant”, “inferior” or “beta”…and that’s not good at all.

    It’s a fine line, and a difficult thing to talk about, but it is an issue, and it should be discussed.

  2. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 9:33 am | | Reply

    @ Jenna
    Finns are famously introverted in Europe. Do you think their society more sexist than countries such as US?
    I do not think Chinese culture favors extrovert men either. At least this was the case until new economy model started to emerge to favor personal appeal to mass market, therefore favor extrovert personality. We are better off to focus on character rather than particular personality in any society. In US, introvert are all trying to act extrovert in fear of being social outcasts and missing out opportunities.

  3. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 9:45 am | | Reply

    “quiet and gentle”… Yes
    ……….The … most Chinese men are like this woman

  4. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 13, 2012 at 9:50 am | | Reply

    I don’t know enough about Finnish culture to comment…but I did say “often”. I am not implying that’s always the case, or even that every person who prefers an introverted partner is sexist. Clearly that’s not true. I’m just saying that it is often an issue, and it is not fair to dismiss such a notion: think about it. You know perfectly well that it can be true and sexism does often go “undercover” by using phrasing that doesn’t sound offensive on the surface. I mention it in relation to China because, as some who has lived in China, I saw it all the time.

    Most notably, a student who said girls should be “quiet and tender”, which is fine, even sweet if you interpret it one way. Later he said things like “a woman shouldn’t be smarter/more educated/more talkative than her partner because that will make him lose face and a man should never lose face due to a woman”. UGH. I saw this attitude a lot in China. This is just one example. It’s one of the reasons I left China in favor of Taiwan, which is more progressive in my experience (to be honest, I saw China as an interesting adventure but I didn’t really like living there).

    Again, I am not saying women shouldn’t be introverted. It’s fine. I don’t mind at all. My focus is on cultural code words and sexism in China, which DOES exist. The stories I could tell you about sexism in China would break your heart – but I gather from your syntax that you are Chinese yourself, so you already know.

    In the US, introverts try to act like extroverts, that’s true, but they’re not social outcasts (it is true that they may miss out on opportunities, which is unfortunate).

    However, in China, many women who are extroverts try to act like introverts for the same fears – being social outcasts, missing opportunities. That is not fair, either.

  5. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 13, 2012 at 9:52 am | | Reply

    And, while Chinese culture may encourage men to be introverts, too…it’s not to the same extent. Men have more leeway to speak out in China than women do. That’s not right.

  6. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 10:13 am | | Reply

    I am aware of women’s plight in China and witness myself. when you try to hire someone, the first question asked by a woman was like “Do you want a man or woman?”.

    With my own share of Chinese upbringing and being a male, I can tell you the culture does not value extroversion to begin with.

  7. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 10:18 am | | Reply

    Any Asian men live in the west will tell you their disadvantages because of their “culture”.

  8. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 13, 2012 at 10:51 am | | Reply

    Yes, but even though full-on extroversion may not be valued, men still have more latitude to be outgoing than women in China without as much fear of social reprisal. You may not see it – people have a way of not noticing their in-group privilege (I, too, am guilty of that oversight) – but it’s true.

    Every group has cultural disadvantages – they happen to be different, but neither China nor the West are blameless. Nor is Taiwan (although I do prefer life here).

  9. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian August 13, 2012 at 11:06 am | | Reply

    文静 wenjing ” gentle and quiet” is indeed considered a virtue to the Chinese. Whether or not it is used as a code for sexism, I am not into a debate for. As far as I am concerned, someone who is wenjing is so much better to be or to live with than being with one who is just loud and assertive just for the sake of not wanting to be missing out or just to be part of the crowd. But you are what or who you are. To each his or her own. And it is no point pretending, nor can anyone really pretend to be wenjing or extroverted when he/she is not. BTW, my understanding is that being extroverted doesn’t mean being loud, just more outgoing. And being wenjing doesn’t mean being anti-social nor a spoilsport, just being quieter and more self-contained.

  10. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 11:18 am | | Reply

    jenna cody …….Chinese people like
    “quiet and gentle”… =Western men like big boobs big ass
    YOU KNOW?………….Gender discrimination?
    …………My family is my cooking
    She can work
    Or does not work
    She does not work I can to support her
    So do not say that the Chinese gender discrimination ..

  11. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 13, 2012 at 11:24 am | | Reply

    I’m sorry, but there is Chinese gender discrimination, and I will say so.

    Not all Chinese men like “quiet and gentle” (many do, perhaps most. Some of these men have sexist beliefs, some don’t). Not all Western men like “big boobs big ass”. Some of these men also have sexist beliefs, some don’t.

    In fact, setting standards for what women should look like, rather than meeting one and being openminded about what you might like (while being honest about what you don’t without implying that women should conform to please you), is also sexist. It happens in China, too, but the parameters are different.

    But I am really sorry to say that you can not say China does not have a problem with sexism. Sexism is a global issue, but China is not a good example of gender progressivism. It’s just not. One of the Big Four reasons I left China was sexism (the other three were lack of freedom, polluted environment and feeling that I had friends for guanxi/social status purposes only, not true friends).

    I read this blog because I did have some interesting experiences in China and living there did shape my early twenties. I also read it because I love Taiwan, and while they’re not the same, they are connected. That does not mean I think China is infallible. It is absolutely not.

  12. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 11:27 am | | Reply

    @ Jenna
    I agree with your on in-group privilege. I guess you are extroverted yourself. I’d be careful not to pass on value judgement because it feels right.

    In the west (US for example), the democratic system provides the platform to put everything under the spotlight. It is a public debate about equal pay, reproduction right and employment opportunities. Both political and economic model promote extroversion. People are more vocal about many issues including introversion and how to shine in a society that values the opposite.

  13. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 11:28 am | | Reply

    jenna cody I said that Western women do not understand the Chinese men
    This is why the majority of Chinese men
    Do not like the Western woman’s reasons
    Chinese men like the type of woman
    Western men like the type of woman’s
    Exactly the opposite
    Taiwanese is a westernized
    ABC is the Americans that they are not Chinese
    I feel that ABC is very naive
    You did not find the ABC Chinese people different?

  14. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 13, 2012 at 11:36 am | | Reply

    Dan – I didn’t pass a value judgment on being introverted vs. extroverted. In fact I said several times that both were fine.

    My point is that it is important to be aware of the double-edged sword of valuing introversion in women specifically. Too often in history those traits have been linked to inferiority, weakness and submission. That’s not always fair or true, but it has happened, and has certainly happened in China. My comments are directed at social norms, not introverts. I think it is fine to be introverted – I think it is fine to be a person who gets along well with introverts and prefers them as partners. I don’t think it’s fine to say you prefer those things but actually mean that you prefer a submissive woman who doesn’t challenge or surpass you. Some men don’t mean that. Others do…and that is a problem in China. It’s one I encountered (see my story above re my student).

    I think it would be best if every culture didn’t value intro- over extro- but had ways of accepting both. I think American culture’s valuing of extroverts does cause problems.

    My point is that China’s valuing of introverts ALSO causes problems, and because valuing these traits is linked historically to sexism, I do feel it’s worth commenting on that this can be an issue.

    dingjie – that’s just not always true. I do not like to conflate China with Taiwan – I do believe they are different countries with differing cultures – but in this case I will draw a comparison. I am a curvy, extroverted Western woman. I’m married to a Western man, but there have been Taiwanese men who have been interested in me…loud mouth, big butt and all. There are plenty of foreign men in Taiwan who prefer Taiwanese women to Western women and value what they have to offer (sometimes sexism is an issue here, sometimes not). So clearly it is not true that the two groups of men value different things. But that’s not even my point.

    I’m not sure what you’re talking about vis-a-vis ABCs so I’ll leave that alone.

  15. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 12:04 pm | | Reply

    You see sexism. To me, that is strong value judgement. I sense the cultural norm. You are not Chinese, so it is not surprising we process the same content differently.
    I came here not to defend Chinese culture. I think the culture conflicts fascinating and challenges myself to think.

  16. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 12:09 pm | | Reply

    jenna cody You do not say sorry
    I do not like the Taiwanese
    I was in Beijing
    Your eyes that pollution-heavy city
    I said that Westerners do not understand the Chinese men
    You know why the Chinese men’s self-esteem
    Because we are not the world’s first power
    So we need to compete
    Because of the weak
    So requires a strong
    Because you are better than others
    So you have to struggle

  17. naomi
    naomi August 13, 2012 at 12:23 pm | | Reply

    I think Jenna has made some excellent points, expressed with care, clarity, and balance. And I think it’s useful for society to reflect on the many words that are code for other less savory ideas.

  18. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 12:31 pm | | Reply

    @naomi

    Do you think a Chinese girl will think the same when someone complements her with those words? Making these points out of your own consciousness is noble, overrated in this case. Accusing my male and Chinese perspective is not subdued sexism? Just saying…

  19. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 12:35 pm | | Reply

    You do not know the Han people and the Half-Blood Han
    I have 90% of Han Chinese origin
    Do you know why northerners than southerners.
    Even if the eastern developed than the northern
    Northern China is the Han people
    The South is the Half-Blood Han
    Shandong Province is higher
    Because they are Han people only 85% of origin
    Taiwanese and Japanese, Korean
    Only 45% of Han Chinese origin
    If ABC is Shandong People
    That Chinese Americans height will be higher than that of whites
    So Chinese people are different

  20. Sveta
    Sveta August 13, 2012 at 12:35 pm | | Reply

    I honestly have no idea on whether to describe myself as outgoing or shy (depends on people or circumstances.) I never liked clubbing or bars either, I’m too sensitive to noise for one, and too terrified of effects of liquor. It does take me a while to feel comfortable with new groups of people, yet at the same time if it weren’t for the fact I started talking with Asian men, I doubt I’d ever have had a boyfriend. (In approaching a guy I made the first moves…)

  21. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 12:39 pm | | Reply

    Shandong even poor
    Height than the Cantonese is much higher
    Shandong is the most developed in Qingdao
    The average height of young men can achieve 178.2CM

  22. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 1:07 pm | | Reply

    Penis size is different
    01 Xinjiang 17.61 cm
    02 Liaoning 15.40 cm
    03 Heilongjiang 15.33 cm
    04 Jilin 15.30 cm
    05 Beijing 15.29 cm
    06 Shandong 14.96 cm
    07 Ningxia 14.58 cm
    08 Inner Mongolia, 14.69 cm
    09 Hebei 14.52 cm
    10 Gansu 14.36 cm
    11 Tianjin 14.24 cm
    12 Shanxi 14.18 cm
    13 Shaanxi 14.05 cm
    14 Shanghai 13.93 cm
    15 Jiangsu 13.71 cm
    16 Henan 13.11 cm
    17 Qinghai 13.10 cm
    18 Anhui 13.09 cm
    19 Zhejiang 13.05 cm
    20 Hubei 12.94 cm
    21 Guangdong 12.52 cm
    22 Yunnan 12.29 cm
    23 Jiangxi 12.17 cm
    24 possession of 12.16 cm
    25 Hainan 12.10 cm
    26 Guangxi 12.05 cm
    27 Guizhou 11.95 cm
    28 Hunan 11.81 cm
    29 Chongqing 11.62 cm
    30 Sichuan 11.53 cm
    31 Fujian 11.12 cm

  23. Claire
    Claire August 13, 2012 at 1:46 pm | | Reply

    If a Chinese man is attracted to any woman just because she is quiet, thinking that he can control her, it will ultimately be to his detriment. There is a difference between being a quiet person and being a pushover due to a lack of confidence or for any other reason.

    Part of what attracts me to my boyfriend is that he is so calm. There is nothing more unattractive than someone that appears to be extrovert but actually feel as though they have something to prove.

    It is probably easier overall for Chinese people if they are attracted to quieter people to fit in with friends and family. Although, you can’t always help who or what traits you are attracted in a person and they aren’t always as you expected.

  24. Bruce
    Bruce August 13, 2012 at 1:55 pm | | Reply

    Who doesn’t need time to himself? quiet and gentle are good sometimes okay. The quiet ones are deadly because we are thinking about how we can solve the problems. Different people have different views on a country

  25. Bruce
    Bruce August 13, 2012 at 2:19 pm | | Reply

    That’s the problem with westerners, you don’t understand why asian/Chinese are sometimes quiet and gentle. The right word to use is ” respect”. There is a time for everything. You can be loud but depending on the right place and the right time. If you ‘re always a big mouth and loud like hell, you are asking for trouble. I’m a quiet, gentle person most of the time but don’t let that fool you. I can go loud, crazy and intense within seconds. We don’t like a quiet and gentle and dumb woman like a stupid ass “female pig”. ehheheheahhahahlol hahhaha soooo funny!!!!!!!!! Yup, so don’t judge a culture or a country until you understand deeply ..

  26. dingjie
    dingjie August 13, 2012 at 2:46 pm | | Reply

    Learn good Chinese people quiet character
    Learn not good Chinese people extrovert character Quiet men generally good-natured
    Gentle and considerate
    extrovert character Of
    Chinese people Like to play
    Go to the bar
    Humor
    Sex
    Open

  27. Dan
    Dan August 13, 2012 at 3:54 pm | | Reply

    @ Dingjie
    Come up something of your own to say. Otherwise, shut up.

  28. Sara
    Sara August 13, 2012 at 11:29 pm | | Reply

    Wow, there’s a lot of going on in the comments section!

    As an famously introvert Finn I found Jocelyn’s post very comforting and familiar.

    But what I was surprised in living here in China, was that even Asian exchange students (who I would thought are more introvert than Westerners) read my introvert personality as not being interested in others, as in cold and harsh. They thought that I’m not interested in being friends with them, when I was just being shy and hoping for someone else to make the first move.

  29. AG
    AG August 13, 2012 at 11:36 pm | | Reply

    Based on personal experience, high SES seems associated more with introvert personality. In China, you can notice upper middle class tend be quiet people. In USA, you will see trailer park people are more out going . Highly educated people tend to be quiet. 君子之交淡如水。

    A book about American social class also indicated that upper class are quiet people with fewer social connection, even with their own relatives.

  30. zhihonglin
    zhihonglin August 14, 2012 at 12:49 am | | Reply

    Interesting. When I told my friends about you, an American woman who married a Chinese man, they imadiatly said: she must be a different kind of American, like more wénjìng (文静), or wényì (文艺). Turns out this is ture. Ha.

  31. naomi
    naomi August 14, 2012 at 6:46 am | | Reply

    @Dan
    I’m not accusing anyone of anything, and I’m not sure where you got that from my comment. All I’m trying to say is that Jenna expressed herself well (written in a calm, rational, well-educated way) and that American society likes to use euphemisms to talk around concepts that are less comfortable to think about.

    @Bruce
    I think many of the commenters here do have a lot of experience with Chinese culture and know more about it than the average Westerner. Based on the comments, many of them have lived in China for an extended period of time. Also, no one is condemning quietness/gentless or saying it’s wrong.

    @AG
    I don’t know what book you were reading, but based on your comment, it seems that the book does not have an accurate understanding of American social class. Generally speaking, the upper class will have more social connections, not fewer.

  32. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 7:35 am | | Reply

    naomi – thanks! I agree completely. Obviously.

    I don’t know where this “study” came from either, but either provide a link or some other reference or I’m going to assume you’re exaggerating or making up its existence: I’ve never heard of such a thing, and in fact, you’ll find in the USA that the most successful tend to be the most extroverted. Especially in the upper middle class where you get a lot of people who have to deal with others (lawyers, doctors – although lawyers do a lot of desk work too) or very successful people who have built their career on sales – you aren’t going to find a lot of extroverts in that group (although as in every group, you’ll always find some). I see absolutely no correlation between education and extro/introversion, and have never seen a study that points to such a correlation existing.

    It seems clear that you’re just speaking from your own viewpoint here – *you* think introverts are “more educated” and extroverts are “low-class”, but that doesn’t make it true.

    As Naomi pointed out, and I tried to make very clear, there is nothing wrong with being an extrovert. In a perfect world there’d be nothing wrong with a culture valuing introversion, and it wouldn’t be as focused on women being quiet (because, as I said, while Chinese culture may value quietness and reflection in men, it’s not to such a great or demanding extent. Chinese men DO have more freedom to be outgoing than Chinese women do). In the world we have, though, we can’t forget what history has shown us regarding a society wanting women to be quiet.

    It would be wrong of me to say that every man who likes quiet women is sexist – but it would be just as wrong to say that no man who prefers introverted women has that preference because he wants a woman he can control. Some men have exactly that problem, and it is a problem I did encounter in China, moreso than America.

  33. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 7:38 am | | Reply

    Also, honestly, in my experience American culture accepts introverts (male and female) more readily and easily than Chinese culture accepts extroverted women. That’s not a good sign for any culture.

  34. Dan
    Dan August 14, 2012 at 8:09 am | | Reply

    It is misleading to bring out gender issues. Countless business studies find introvert leaders to be more effective in general. An example is classic book “Good to Great”. Obviously it is a new subject to you.

    Just because you are better at qualify an argument does not make it a valid one. I do not bother to point out your nationality , but I already knew from the syntax. Talking about hidden bias.

  35. aiyangxifu
    aiyangxifu August 14, 2012 at 8:16 am | | Reply

    I work in an American hospital. In term of quietness, Surgeons > primary care doctors > RN > LPN > medical orderlies > janitors.

    We often called surgeons as `non-verbal creatures’.

  36. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 8:46 am | | Reply

    Err, business is not a new subject to me – I work in corporate training. Extroverts and introverts can both make good leaders, often for different reasons. Just because one book said something you like doesn’t make it true.

    And it is not misleading to bring up gender issues: gender issues are a problem in China, and the sorts of things I mentioned above did and do happen, and this is often a way that sexism in all cultures goes undercover. Just because you don’t want to admit that sexism is a problem in China doesn’t mean it’s not true. Just because you don’t want to admit that you enjoy privilege as a Chinese man that Chinese women do not enjoy doesn’t mean it’s not true.

    I don’t think I’ve said anything particularly biased – I’m not anti-introvert. I’m not even anti-men-who-like-introverts. I’m not fully anti-China, just honest about the problems I saw in the society there. Just because you don’t like my viewpoint doesn’t mean I’m wrong.

  37. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 8:48 am | | Reply

    Besides, I may be American, but I am hardly pro-America. I left America to live in another country and do not expect to move home, except possibly temporarily to care for aging parents someday. I criticize the USA just has harshly if not more so.

  38. Dan
    Dan August 14, 2012 at 8:49 am | | Reply

    I am not disagree with society’s woes. Taking a moral high ground in a culture and personality discussion is cheap.
    I had a lot of international business experience. Does that qualify me better than your corporate training? You have never even bother to read the researches either.

  39. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 8:55 am | | Reply

    I read plenty of research – honestly, none of it has ever really convinced me that what you are saying about business is true. There is a lot of crap “business research” out there. A lot of fluff. A lot of falsehood and a lot of hype. You would be wise to not put too much stock in it.

    I am not taking cultural potshots. One of the other reasons I left China, by the way, is that I felt like it was impossible to offer a frank, substantive criticism without being attacked for “hating China” or “not understanding”. (Taiwan, on the other hand, has a culture that will happily tease itself and be open to outside feedback – one of the many differences between the two countries).

    Americans have the same problem these days, as well (you’ll also see a similar issue in Korean culture): they take any criticism as a meaningless personal attack rather than seeing the genuine feedback and reactions of others for what they are. It doesn’t mean that the culture being criticized is all bad: no culture is all bad. Most are a mix of bad and good.

    If you can’t handle criticism of China, just admit it. Don’t pretend like I’m taking potshots when I’m pointing out a very real problem.

  40. SBC
    SBC August 14, 2012 at 8:58 am | | Reply

    thats so interesting. Well, there is scientific evidence about introversion leading to more success in a particular field, but these scientific studies are done because intoversion is considered negative trait in the US. While trying to find a job, or even getting into a program, I found that my quiet side would work against me in the States. Back home, people valued it and even admired that I would keep my mouth shut. Not in the US. I dont think extraversion simply means partying it up or being loud mouthed. Its the general tendency to network, make connections and talk to people. The first definition is misleading. Thats called having fun and even introverts can do that every once in a while. Also, even chinese corporate culture requires employees to drink and endure karaoke. So I dont think the difference is in terms of who parties more. Of course introverts are more likely to curl up with a book as they find it more relaxing than the draining partying.

    Its not about speaking your mind either. Most extroverts can be people pleasers. They say things people want and like to hear and not whats on their mind, while introverts can be blunt and direct. So I dont think gender issues are related to introversion and extraversion culturally.

    More importantly its the value placed on silence and being quiet if you dont have anything to say. In my classes in grad school in US, asian kids would automatically get ignored because they kept quiet while american kids raised hands to sometimes make meaningless contributions in class. I also saw several people get ahead in corporate jobs just my schmoozing to the right people, being “chatty” and “friendly”. People who keep to themselves and do their work have a harder time climbing up the ladder or getting their foot in the door in the US. So I can understand why someone quiet and gentle might be mistaken for weak and incompetent.

    Its not so in Asia. even in louder parts of Asia, silence and quietude are equated with wisdom and class.

  41. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 9:15 am | | Reply

    Not aimed at you personally – but a culture that can’t see its own sexism and refuses to accept that it might exist (or dismisses it because it just doesn’t want to deal with gender inequality) is one that’s headed for trouble. If you can’t see it, or won’t see it, you can’t fix it, and the problem continues.

    When I lived in China I knew two divorced Chinese women. One had to leave her city – a difficult thing to do under the residential registration system – because nobody in her city would give her work. Her husband had gambled away their money, would steal from her and others and beat their child, but everyone in town blamed her for the divorce: she was “not a good wife” – “not tender enough”, “not kind enough”, “she didn’t try hard enough to create a peaceful home life”. In order to gain custody of her son, she had to threaten to kill herself right there in the courtroom – they were going to give the boy to his father, who’d beaten him and frittered away their money.

    The other stayed in the town where she divorced – she had been dating a man who said if she ever left, he’d kill her. Her father said “then you should marry him – that means he really loves you. If you are a sweet and quiet girl he won’t harm you”. Well, he beat her constantly. She left – and again, the whole town blamed her. Not tender enough, not sweet enough, not quiet enough, too uppity. If she’d been a “better wife” he wouldn’t have beaten her, they said, and she wouldn’t have left him. She ended up marrying one of my foreign coworkers. I don’t know if they really loved each other – maybe. I do know that she couldn’t find work and nobody else would have her, after all, she “drove her husband to beat her”.

    This all happened in 2002-2003 – it isn’t even ancient history. Just ten years ago, and not even in small towns.

    The people that treated these women so poorly would turn right around and say that sexism isn’t a problem in China – it’s just culture. They’d say “women hold up half the sky and anyway it’s OK if my wife works” (but doesn’t earn more than me – which is also sexism). They’d reiterate that women should be “tender”, “quiet” and “sweet”. Some would be like that student I described above, who said that women should never be smarter, better educated, more successful or more talkative than their husbands because that would cause the men to lose face.

    But that IS sexism, and that’s what I mean when I say that sometimes these words are code words for sexist beliefs about how women should act and what their role should be…not just in China. China’s only the example here for a much bigger global problem.

    It’s a huge issue, and the two (valuing introversion in women and sexist beliefs) are related, even if every instance of one is not directly correlated to the other.

    Again, I don’t mean that it’s bad to be introverted. I don’t mean that China’s a terrible place – I didn’t really want to stay, but it was not terrible. I had a lot of cool adventures. I got to go to 四川,新疆,北京,雲南,西安,山東,廣州,香港,重慶 – all unforgettable.

    I just mean that sexism is a problem in China, and this can (not always – but it can) be reflected in how they view women and the adjectives they use for what women should be like.

  42. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 9:19 am | | Reply

    re: the drinking and karaoke in business – that’s one reason why women in Asia have had a harder time of getting to the top. Either they can’t or don’t drink, or they feel out of place or unsafe drinking with businessmen, or those “karaoke” bars are really hostess bars or even thinly disguised brothels with rooms nearby. Even if they’re just karaoke with bikini girls and no taking the girls back to a room (those “cleaner” versions do exist), women generally feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in them.

    But you need to do that to get anywhere in business in Asia – and it is a problem for women who want those higher-level positions.

    It’s just as bad in Korea and don’t even get me started on Japan. It’s also a problem in Taiwan.

  43. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:04 am | | Reply

    jenna cody I want to tell you Chinese people
    Because the region So they are different

  44. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:05 am | | Reply

    Jonna Wibelius is originally Sweden but has spent the last 7 years living in England, Australia, Finland and now China (Shanghai/Suzhou since 2006). SHE in China is her blog about her observations on every day life.
    Chinese man + Western girl…isn’t a combination you see much of in China. While Western men often date Chinese girls, it’s quite rare to see Western women with Chinese men. Why?

    Well, I actually don’t know (who does?!) for sure, but I can only guess that it has something to do with one, or many, of the following reasons:

    1. Western girls are taller/ have got ’bigger bones’ than most Chinese men, and often look/are bigger than Chi men. A girl doesn’t want to feel ’bigger’ than her men and a man doesn’t want to feel smaller than his woman…

    2. Culture differences: many Western women are quite independent and used to sharing the house chores with their men. In many Chinese cities, the woman is expected (regardless if she has a full time job or not) to take care of the household, make dinner, and so on, with no additional help from the man (except for if she lives in Shanghai! The Shanghai men are apparently real house helpers). I find it hard to imagine a western woman settling for this when she’s been brought up in a completely different society. At least I know I wouldn’t.

    3. Language barrier (needs no further explanation)

    4. Lack of mutual attraction?!
    When I first moved to China I caught myself thinking that ’I will never find an Asian man attractive… they are just not my style….’ But then, something happened?! I don’t know if my eyes needed time to adjust to the different scene or what… but suddenly I started to see attractive Asian men on the streets (China, Korean, Japanese…)

    I think it might have something to do with the fact that you first come, and think that everyone looks the same (this goes both ways: many Chinese have told me that they think all western people look the same) and then it takes a while for your eyes to adjust and actually distinct people? Anyways, that’s how I felt it was. After something like 8months-1 year I started seeing a lot of attractive Asian men, and the funny thing is, that when I pointed them out to western friends who had just come here/who was here for a visit, they just looked at me and frowned.

    Maybe the eye needs some time to get used to things? I don’t know what other way to explain it… Nowadays I can think that many Asian men are attractive. When me and one of my girlfriends travelled to Seoul in Jan this year we were both quite amazed how good the guys looked, how well they dressed, and so on. (Although, to me, simply being attracted isn’t enough to start dating. There obviously needs to be a personality click as well)

    In general, I think Chinese men are more feminine than Western men. A classic example is the ’man bag’ that became trendy some years ago… In China a man bag seem to be able to look like a woman’s handbag and still be OK for a man to carry around??! (and then there are of course Chinese men carrying around their woman’s hand bags… so those shouldn’t be mixed up!). Try getting a Western man to do that = instant failure.

  45. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:06 am | | Reply

    Also, Chinese men can go and have a manicure, something that I think I’d have to violently force on my Western bf, if I wanted him to get one (I don’t, however!). I also think that Chinese men in general wear tighter clothes and more bright colours than western men .. I don’t know, many of them just feel ’more in touch with their feminine side’ than western men (I guess I should mention that I moved from Finland to China, and Finland being the most masculine country I have ever lived in -not in a good way!!!) I also get this feeling that Chinese men are a bit more sensitive than western men. I mean, have you ever heard a Western man humming along (loudly) to ’My heart will go on’ on the streets!?

    So, could I date a Chinese man (IF I was single)?! I don’t know. I think my main concern would be the culture differences. I think that a Chinese man would find me very bold, opinionated and obstinate, and I am not sure how he would deal with that? (gosh, I like to put myself in a bright light, don’t I?! But I have strong opinions! I could never hide them). Also, I love doing sports?! Meaning: I love sweating. Not considered very feminine in China?

  46. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:07 am | | Reply

    Actually, I don’t see myself as being as ’girly girly’ as Chinese girls. I like to wear pretty dresses and high heels, but I don’t expect present from my bf if he goes travelling, I don’t expect my bf to pay for everything (I like to be able to pay for myself!) when we go out, and I would never act like a spoilt child to get what I want. Would this be considered strange to a Chi man, or would he actually appreciate it?

    I would looooove to hear from a Western girl who has personal experience from dating a Chinese guy… Or, a Chinese guy who’s been dating a Western woman. Maybe all the above reasons I have written down are wrong? Maybe some makes sense? Maybe there are plenty if other reasons that I have forgotten? What do you guys think? Please share!!!

  47. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:09 am | | Reply

    Post by: ScubaSteve Time: 20-Oct-2008 17:04
    “I mean, have you ever heard a Western man humming along (loudly) to ’My heart will go on’ on the streets!?”

    perhaps, Chinese dudes just have really bad taste in music, did you ever think of that?

    this is a silly post. Western dudes like Chinese girls because they’re exotic and submissive, not to mention that a lot of ex-pats in China couldn’t cut it w/ the ladies back home.

    Western chicks aren’t really that attracted to Chinese dudes, yes because of the aforementioned smaller bones and height issue, but perhaps you can allow yourself to elaborate:
    __________________.

    Chinese women (according to a Durex condoms poll) are, globally, some of the least likely to regularly achieve orgasm during intercourse, most likely because dudes just don’t know what buttons to push. Add on the FACT that most Western women have a longer cervix and you’ve got a sexual mis-adventure waiting to happen.

  48. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:09 am | | Reply

    Post by: ScubaSteve Time: 20-Oct-2008 17:04
    “I mean, have you ever heard a Western man humming along (loudly) to ’My heart will go on’ on the streets!?”

    perhaps, Chinese dudes just have really bad taste in music, did you ever think of that?

    this is a silly post. Western dudes like Chinese girls because they’re exotic and submissive, not to mention that a lot of ex-pats in China couldn’t cut it w/ the ladies back home.

    Western chicks aren’t really that attracted to Chinese dudes, yes because of the aforementioned smaller bones and height issue, but perhaps you can allow yourself to elaborate:
    __________________.

    Chinese women (according to a Durex condoms poll) are, globally, some of the least likely to regularly achieve orgasm during intercourse, most likely because dudes just don’t know what buttons to push. Add on the FACT that most Western women have a longer cervix and you’ve got a sexual mis-adventure waiting to happen.

    hmmmm . . . .

  49. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:10 am | | Reply

    Post by: deliberate Time: 24-Oct-2008 8:04
    You guys are all still (still) talking about old, folklore and pop-culture-based stereotypical beliefs.

    You have to look at the glass half full instead of half -empty!

    I’ve been to China 7 times…

    I have seen some very masculine HOT and BIG Chinese dudes. Maybe I don’t waste time looking at the small, wimpy, computer nerdy, fem Chinese dudes you are all talking about, but I honestly didn’t see any like that.

    I think that because of different traditions and different needs in their society (Chinese daily life is NOT easy like ours is) their tastes are different… but if you look past the brightly colored clothes or the fact that the dude might not be totally ripped with a 6 pack and might not be a cocky bastard “player” like lots of western “hot” dudes are, then you could see real masculine beauty and strength with Chinese men.

    Especially in Qingdao I saw lots of tall, large-framed Chinese men whose faces almost made me drop in my tracks…I mean literally, “drop dead handsome”. And they are also “exotic” in that they are “different” than what we’re used to…they’re (usually) not as “cocky” as western guys and are much less assuming. They tend to be a little more reserved, shy and perhaps conservative…but they still would love to have a try with a western woman (if they’re single that is– want to stress here: don’t go out and break up homes in china now western girls!).

    to be continued in next post (it’s long)

  50. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:11 am | | Reply

    Post by: deliberate Time: 24-Oct-2008 8:05

    I’m married to a Chinese man (from China). He’s pretty atypical for a Chinese man if you think of most Chinese men as you’ve all described above…But I’d venture to say there are plenty like him.

    He’s tall (over 6 feet tall) and weighs almost 200 lbs and LOVES to go to the gym. He’s really independant (not easy to push this guy around) BUT he’s fiercely loyal and does think my opinion as his wife matters with important decisions and so he does ask me. His traditional little cultural inuendos and quirks are just endearing and provide me with a great learning opportunity about him and his culture and humanity (and help me constantly look at myself)…

    Now, that being said…I wondered (painstakingly) as I walked the streets in China what the hell American or western women are thinking? Where are their heads? up their asses? (sorry girls…I have to ask this) bEcause there really are some HOT guys there!!!! And ones that are worth asking out if you (and they) are single!!

    If you NEVER ask them out or present a situation where they can ask YOU, then you’ll never know how delightful an experience a Chinese man is!!! You just have to give it a go and see for yourself!!!! It’s wonderful!!!

  51. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 10:15 am | | Reply

    Post by: deliberate Time: 24-Oct-2008 8:08
    LAST ONE: Cont’d from last post:

    And BTW, whoever thinks that Chinese men as a rule have small penises….is wrong. They are really no different than the white/caucasian guys….some small, some big– mostly average. I have dated another Chinese guy long time ago– and a couple of friends have as well. Some are BIG! Some are average. Never saw a really small one! The smallest (and I mean really teeny tiny) guy I’ve ever seen was a white guy…incredibly small. (and that doesn’t mean all white guys are small obviously)! WHO STARTED this lame rumor about chinese guys and small penises? HA! shows what little people know or are interested in finding out. I have a theory that white guys started that little story to keep their women out of CHinese guys’ pants while they were scouting out the chinese chicks. So, you have generations of western women who believe Chinese men are effeminate and have small penises. No wonder they aren’t attracted to Chinese men! haha whatever!!

  52. Dan
    Dan August 14, 2012 at 10:18 am | | Reply

    Introversion and extroversion is a set of traits and natural tendencies. For example, extrovert talks to think while introvert thinks before talking. SBC has summarized the essence of it. Asian culture values introversion and sees it as strength. US is one of the most extroverted place on earth. An extroverted person in Asia can feel out of place the same away when Asians go to the west. In some ways you are repressed in a society place higher value on traits against your natural tendencies. Both US and Asia will need to be more accommodating given the fact people are born to be one way or the other .

  53. AG
    AG August 14, 2012 at 10:30 am | | Reply

    Here are some thing people need to read and think about their own reasoning.
    Assertive statement by no mean is correct one.
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/05/the-shaggy-assertion-just-pretend-youre-right/
    Arguing with pure verbal reasoning itself often wrong.
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/08/the-perils-of-reason/

    That is why we have science to produce data that are for or against hypothesis. Insulting other culture with preconceived prejudice is debate killer. Believe or not, gender achievement gap is quite small in China if you are long time Economists magazine readers.

    No sure western countries are nicer to assertive women. I constantly hear the word `bitch’ a lot in USA.

  54. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 10:30 am | | Reply

    “Many Western women are quite independent and used to sharing the house chores with their men. In many Chinese cities, the woman is expected (regardless if she has a full time job or not) to take care of the household, make dinner, and so on, with no additional help from the man (except for if she lives in Shanghai! The Shanghai men are apparently real house helpers). I find it hard to imagine a western woman settling for this when she’s been brought up in a completely different society. At least I know I wouldn’t.”

    Exactly. Sexism. We won’t tolerate it (mostly – there are Western women who do). This is sexism, and it’s not acceptable, and that’s what I mean when I say there is a problem. Sure, China’s huge, but it’s juuuuust culturally homogenous enough that I say with confidence that this is a nationwide issue. Heck, it’s an issue all across Asia and elsewhere.

    But, hey, honestly, I don’t think those are the reasons why a lot of Western women don’t date Asian men (although the sexism thing is an issue. I won’t call it a culture difference – it’s sexism). Honestly, most of it all boils down to Western women expecting a man to be more forthright or obvious when he likes her. Asian men tend to be more indirect, and Western women often don’t realize an Asian guy likes them because they’re not making it clear enough for us to understand. That’s a two-sided problem: a Western woman in Asia should become accustomed to looking more closely for clues, and Asian men who want to date Western women need to be more forthright.

    Because, you know, there are big Chinese guys and petite Western women, language barriers have been overcome since the dawn of time, and all those other cultural issues can be overcome. I don’t think the penis size thing is really as big (heh heh) an issue or difference as people think.

    I married a Westerner but had I been single in Taiwan for longer I would have dated Taiwanese guys, and there were guys who liked me – big butt, loud mouth and all.

  55. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 11:10 am | | Reply

    Guangzhou, 18-22 years old of average height 172.7CM Guangzhou 23 to 28 years old, average height 171.5CM
    China is the most southern Big city

    Chengdu, 18-22 years old of average the height 172.9CM Chengdu 23 to 28 years old, average height 171.6CM
    Southwest China Big city

    Shanghai, 18-22 years old of average the height 174.5CM Shanghai 23 to 28 years old, average height 173.4CM
    Largest cities in eastern China
    Beijing, 18-22 years old of average the the height 176.2CM 23 to 28 years old, average height 175.6CM
    The capital of China Largest city in northern China
    Qingdao, 18-22 years old of average the height 178.2CM Qingdao 23 to 28 years old, average height 177.2CM
    Largest cities in the north-central China
    Dalian, 18-22 years old of average the height 178.3CM Dalian 23 to 28 years old, average height 177.2CM
    The largest city of northeastern China
    Wuhan, 18-22 years old of average the height 174.8CM Wuhan, 23 to 28 years old, average height 173.5CM
    The largest cities in China and Central
    Suzhou, 18-22 years old of average the height 173.CM Suzhou 23 to 28 years old, average height 171.7CM
    The eastern Chinese city

  56. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 11:15 am | | Reply

    排名城市 2011GDP 对比2010增长率=Compared to 2010 growth rate
    (省、直辖市中排位)
    1、上海市 19196亿元=3017.6112亿美元
    =$ 301.76112 billion
    增长 8.0% (沪)
    2、北京市 16000亿元 增长 8.0% (京)
    3、广州市 12380亿元 增长11.0% (广东1)
    4、天津市 11191亿元 增长16.5% (津)
    5、深圳市 11000亿元 增长10.0% (广东2)
    6、苏州市 10500亿元 增长12.0% (江苏1)
    7、重庆市 10011亿元 增长16.7% (渝)
    8、杭州市 7000亿元 增长10.0% (浙江1)
    9、无锡市 6900亿元 增长11.5% (江苏2)
    10、成都市 6800亿元 增长15.0% (四川1)
    11、佛山市 6613亿元 增长12.0% (广东3)
    12、青岛市 6600亿元 增长–.-% (山东1)
    13、武汉市 6500亿元 增长12.0% (湖北1)
    14、南京市 6140亿元 增长12.0% (江苏3)
    15、大连市 6100亿元 增长14.0% (辽宁1)
    16、宁波市 6000亿元 增长10.0% (浙江2)
    17、沈阳市 5950亿元 增长12.6% (辽宁2)
    18、长沙市 5600亿元 增长14.0% (湖南1)
    19、唐山市 5400亿元 增长11.3% (河北1)
    20、烟台市 4900亿元 增长12.5% (山东2)
    21、郑州市 4900亿元 增长13.0% (河南1)
    22、东莞市 4735亿元 增长11.1% (广东4)
    23、济南市 4400亿元 增长10.5% (山东3)
    24、泉州市 4270亿元 增长13.5% (福建1)
    25、南通市 4100亿元 增长12.0% (江苏4)
    26、长春市 4040亿元 增长15.2% (吉林1)
    27、哈尔滨市 4000亿元 增长12.5% (黑龙江1)
    28、石家庄市 4000亿元 增长12.0% (河北2)
    29、西安市 3800亿元 增长14.9% (陕西1)
    30、大庆市 3737亿元 增长12.0% (黑龙江2)
    31、福州市 3705亿元 增长13.0% (福建2)
    32、潍坊市 3691亿元 增长11.2% (山东4)
    33、常州市 3650亿元 增长12.0% (江苏5)
    34、徐州市 3600亿元 增长13.0% (江苏6)
    35、合肥市 3600亿元 增长16.0% (安徽1)
    36、温州市 3337亿元 增长9.5% (浙江3)
    37、淄博市 3280亿元 增长12.0% (山东5)
    38、绍兴市 3200亿元 增长–.-% (浙江4)
    39、鄂尔多斯 3000亿元 增长–.-% (内蒙古1)
    40、包头市 2900亿元 增长15.6% (内蒙古2)
    41、济宁市 2820亿元 增长11.0% (山东6)
    42、台州市 2815亿元 增长8.6% (浙江5)
    43、邯郸市 2800亿元 增长–.-% (河北3)
    44、盐城市 2760亿元 增长13.0% (江苏7)
    45、东营市 2757亿元 增长12.8% (山东7)
    46、洛阳市 2723亿元 增长12.8% (河南2)
    47、临沂市 2700亿元 增长12.0% (山东8)
    48、扬州市 2630亿元 增长12.0%(江苏8)
    49、南昌市 2610亿元 增长13.0% (江西1)
    50、嘉兴市 2610亿元 增长11.0% (浙江6)

  57. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 11:22 am | | Reply

    1.9196 trillion yuan, the Shanghai = 3017.6112 million U.S. dollars
    = $ 301.76112 billion
    Increase of 8.0% (Shanghai)
    2, Beijing (Beijing)
    3, the Guangzhou (Guangdong)
    4, Tianjin (Tianjin)
    5, Shenzhen (Guangdong 2)
    6, Suzhou (Jiangsu)
    7, Chongqing (Chongqing)
    8, Hangzhou (Zhejiang)
    9, Wuxi (Jiangsu 2)
    10, Chengdu (Sichuan)
    11, Foshan (Guangdong 3)
    12, Qingdao City (Shandong)
    13, Wuhan (Hubei)
    14, Nanjing (Jiangsu)
    15, Dalian (Liaoning 1)
    16, Ningbo (Zhejiang 2)
    17, Shenyang City (Liaoning 2)
    18, Changsha (Hunan 1)
    19, Tangshan (Hebei)
    20, Yantai (Shandong 2)
    21, Zhengzhou (Henan),
    22, Dongguan City (Guangdong 4)
    23, Jinan City (Shandong 3)
    24, Quanzhou (Fujian)
    25, Nantong City (Jiangsu Province 4)
    26, Changchun City, (Jilin one)
    27, Harbin (Heilongjiang)
    28, Shijiazhuang City (Hebei 2)
    29, Xi’an (Shaanxi)
    30, Daqing (Heilongjiang 2)
    31, Fuzhou (Fujian)
    32, Weifang (Shandong)
    33, Changzhou (Jiangsu)
    34, Xuzhou (Jiangsu)
    35, Hefei (Anhui)
    36, Wenzhou (Zhejiang)
    37, Zibo city (Shandong)
    38, Shaoxing (Zhejiang 4)
    39, Erdos (Inner Mongolia)
    40, Baotou City (Inner Mongolia)
    41, Jining (Shandong)
    42, Taizhou (Zhejiang)
    43, Handan (Hebei)
    44, Yancheng (Jiangsu)
    45, Dongying City (Shandong)
    46, Luoyang (Henan)
    47, Linyi City, Shandong eight
    48, Yangzhou (Jiangsu)
    49, Nanchang (Jiangxi)
    50, Jiaxing City (Zhejiang 6)

  58. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian August 14, 2012 at 11:52 am | | Reply

    Guys, are we not going a little too far if we just equate everything to sexism? Wenjing is code for sexism. Marriage breakdown is tied in to wenjing or the lack of, therefore sexism. Now me say just being male and female is sexism itself. Maybe we should blame god or evolution for being the ultimate sexist. I know you guys won’t buy into this, because we always think that the we are right and the other is mistaken. Haha

  59. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 11:57 am | | Reply

    jenna cody Why are you talking about 2001?
    Do you want to talk about 1800 to 1950? 2012 is now I am only 22 years old
    Guangdong people eat cats
    Off we Liaoning what? Yes ah
    They are all Chinese.
    Do you know Chinese American is where people
    ? Do you know which people of European ethnic Chinese? Chinese American Fujianese, Cantonese
    British Chinese Guangdong, Fujian, Hong Kong
    France, Chinese and Spanish Chinese Italian ethnic Chinese is the Qingtian Lishui, Wenzhou, Zhejiang
    Ah … a Cantonese eat cats
    The Westerners wow …. Chinese people eat cats ….
    I was stolen in Paris
    Wow … the French are bandits
    So …. I hope your IQ higher point

  60. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 12:19 pm | | Reply

    …. Yes you can and I talked about the Tiananmen incident … I do not mind ……….

  61. Bruce
    Bruce August 14, 2012 at 12:38 pm | | Reply

    Damn you guys are taking a little bit far ! There is always someone for you! If you’re a woman who looks and acts like a man, there is a person for you. So there is someone for everyone so don’t complain that and this..

  62. dingjie
    dingjie August 14, 2012 at 1:13 pm | | Reply

    jenna cody …Yes…160 to 168CM white woman
    Much
    .My friend and I go to Paris in April
    He is a basketball team He 202CM
    French men 20 to 40-year-old of average height 175.6
    French women aged 20 to about 40-year-old of average height 165CM

    …Paris has a lot of … a thief

  63. ordinary malaysian
    ordinary malaysian August 14, 2012 at 6:06 pm | | Reply

    I think Jocelyn must be flabbergasted! I don’t think she really expected all this heat on the subject of wenjing. I think all she wanted to say was how the Chinese view wenjing and how different it is from the western perception of it. Ah, but we never know where something will lead us to…do we?

  64. Dan
    Dan August 14, 2012 at 6:43 pm | | Reply

    It is an important culture difference. Asians should find strength in their heritage. More importantly, be more accepting with who they are and take advantage of queit power. Ignorance in the name of high moral values is deeply biased. Colonizers used to hold gun in one hand and the Bible on the other. What’s the difference.

  65. mad dog
    mad dog August 14, 2012 at 7:06 pm | | Reply

    I will be an online extrovert with no holding back of my unbiased opinion.

    When some one labels entire Asian culture sexism. I can call such individual down right racist. Signature of racism is generalization. When some one demonstrated that, Most racists are low IQ types who lack basic reasoning skill. Another mark for racism is double standard. They blame victims for their own prejudice.

  66. Jason
    Jason August 14, 2012 at 7:32 pm | | Reply

    Hell, if people look too deep into anything you can convince yourself that anything exists. I can go dig up a bunch of UFO articles and claim they exist too.

    Does sexism exist in China? Maybe it does maybe it doesn’t I don’t really care. It depends on the person. It might exist for a person who is constantly thinking about it, or looking for it, or experiencing it. But for another person it could mean nothing, has nothing to do what country you’re in. My family is Chinese, and as far as I know, none of the females members in my family have experienced any sexism. My aunt owns her own company in Shanghai, another aunt of mine is the director of a hospital.

    So if Jenna Cody can give me 2 examples of women getting screwed by men. Well, I can also do the opposite and give 2 examples of 2 men getting screwed over by women, and I can also call that sexism as well. So then what? It will never end, I can dig up thousands of articles of stories of Chinese guys getting screwed over. So what? It doesn’t mean anything, just meant that they, as individuals, had a tough break. Why can’t we look at things separately.

    Once you go looking for something, then you’ll see it pop up again and again, and it will exist in your experience for sure.

    Me? I lived in China for almost 10 years, I hardly come across any of this nonsense people talk about, I’m sure it exists, but I don’t go looking for it.

    My boss is a Chinese female, so doesn’t go around drinking at business meetings. She comes to work early and leaves when we leave.

    As far as males wanting females to be obedient, stay-at-home cooks. Never experienced any of that crap. A lot of my co-workers are married females, very few of them cook, mostly their husband does the cooking (I don’t live in Shanghai either). So that theory can be shot down easily. And none of them are this 文静 crap either, they’re just NORMAL people like everyone else.

    Why is it that foreigners always see stuff like this?

    “The Chinese women are quiet, my students are quiet, they are obdient, they are this, that blah blah blah”

    “The Chinese men hate Japanese, hate Taiwanese, they’re quiet, they can’t talk blah blah blah”

    In a country of a billion people, they always come in contact with the most stereotypical Chinese experience ever. The hell is up with that?

  67. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 8:58 pm | | Reply

    First, I gave two examples, but do you really think that is the full extent of the sexism I saw or that exists in China? I gave two specific examples because they were the strongest (and the most horrific) but it’s a much more widespread problem, with varying consequences (note how even in those stories, the antagonists – who were not all male – were many. Do you think those were the only two women they’ve treated badly?). If you don’t want to believe that sexism is an issue in China, there’s nothing I can do for your ignorance. Go research it then come back to me. Start with the abortion of female fetuses under the one child policy, then wage disparity in China, and then the prevalence of 小三, then cultural norms regarding who takes care of the home (regardless of whether the wife has a job), then how it’s still acceptable to hire based on discriminatory criteria (“Wanted: young, slender, fair woman to work as personal secretary”) and end up here: http://jezebel.com/5933532/chinese-officials-free-woman-who-had-been-shittily-detained-for-fighting-daughters-rape-case

    Then come back and tell me sexism “doesn’t exist”.

    I have to say I get really sick and tired of people (well, men) who have never experienced what it’s like to live in a world where so many societies – most, really – are still working towards equal rights and treatment for women, saying that sexism doesn’t exist, or that they don’t care. You really don’t care that 50%, give or take, of the human race, is still fighting to be treated equally to the other 50%? You REALLY don’t care? OK, then you’re something I won’t say on this site. Go ask those women you cited if they’ve *never* experienced *any* kind of sexism. Go. Do it.

    I also still see that plenty of people are continuing to misread my comments. I didn’t say that China was terrible, or that only China is sexist: I did say quite clearly that sexism is a global problem. It’s better in some places (say, Sweden) than others (say, China) but it’s a global problem. As an American, I am also extremely critical of what’s going on in the USA right now in terms of women’s rights.

    I also didn’t say that “wenjing” was always code for “sexism” – just that it often is. You have truly never met a man who says he wants a “quiet and tender woman” and known that what he really meant was “I want a submissive woman who I can control”? Not all women who are “wenjing” are that way, which I’ve said (and has been mostly ignored). Not all men mean that they want a submissive woman when they say they want “wenjing” (which I also said, and which was also ignored). Finally, that women are expected to be “wenjing” in China, which is fine for women who are, but it’s a huge problem for extroverted Chinese women. Chinese men have more latitude to be outgoing in China than women do. THAT is sexism.

    My main point is that it does happen sometimes, and this is an issue, and it would be wise of you to care about it because it affects everyone.

    No, it’s not worth turning every little thing into a “sign” of “sexism”, but this particular thing is worth considering. Note how I didn’t say this on any other post here – and it’s not like I go around the Internet saying everything is sexist.

    But, again, if you really don’t want to believe that sexism exists in China or elsewhere (because if you don’t believe that China is sexist, you must not believe that anywhere is sexist), and you feel that every time someone criticizes Chinese culture that it’s unfair or unwarranted (which is very dangerous – every culture has issues one can criticize and China’s no different – and it’s a mistake to ignore that), then, well, go research for yourself. I’m not going to stay and fight the ignorance of someone I’ve never even met.

    Really, though, I’m not going to repeat my main points. This is a case where I’ve said what I’ve had to say at least three times, and it’s been twisted and misinterpreted into better fodder for Internet argument. If you’re going to argue, argue on the merits of my points, don’t twist them around: fight based on “some men say they want a ‘tender’ woman but what they mean is that they want a woman who is submissive, but this is not always the case”, not based on “it’s terrible to be introverted because men are sexist and wah wah wah”. I said the former, not the latter. Fight based on “China, like any country, has issues with sexism and there are some elements of its culture that merit criticism”, not “China is so horrible and sexist wah wah wah!”. Again, I said the former, NOT the latter.

    Otherwise, Internet debates in which someone says something and it gets blunted down into some twisted, hateful form that was never intended, and all arguments coming back ignore the finer points of the initial statement…really not my bag. You guys enjoy yourselves.

  68. Bruce
    Bruce August 14, 2012 at 9:18 pm | | Reply

    Let me explain something here! Westerners see things differently in many ways. We must accept our ways of life. If you ask a wmaw couple that his wife is obedient, he will give you a different answer! Chinese women are not obedient you fool !!!!!!!!! They understand the meaning of keeping the family together!! The only thing obedient is a piece of log. Tell me what is a marriage? I’ve been married over 10 yrs. I don’t force my wife to cook or clean. We both are professionals. For example, If I married a Chinese woman in China, I won’t tell her to cook or clean seriously. Stop saying Chinese women are obedient and can NOT move up in society!! Count how many Chinese women who are billionaires and millionaires in China. Please count!! Chinese women are taught to be polite but they are not obedient like westerners think they are

  69. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 9:20 pm | | Reply

    You must be referring to someone else because I did not say “Chinese women are obedient”.

  70. Bruce
    Bruce August 14, 2012 at 9:35 pm | | Reply

    Don’t compare china’s progress with human rights or women’s rights from the U.S or other countries! If you start comparing you guys will argue to infinity!! How do you argue that china is doing a good job on shooting all criminals, rapists dead and save taxpayers lots of money ? In America you let criminals and rapists run wild costing taxpayers $$$$ by giving them 5 to 20 yrs in jail without death sentence. It’s off the subject but I want to say that each country has its own beliefs, laws and culture so you better adopt or leave. You people can’t handle 300 mil people . How can you change a 1.3 b people nation overnight? Time is the answer. Give me a smart ,educated answer now damn it!!

  71. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 9:40 pm | | Reply

    I think it is perfectly valid to compare women’s rights in China to women’s rights in other countries.

    Of course a country doesn’t change overnight, but the first step is acknowledging a problem and working towards solutions. This is difficult, because people will hide behind “culture” as a reason (it’s not – it’s perfectly possible to maintain cultural integrity and also have gender equality – besides, China kind of already missed the boat on preserving its culture in the mid-20th century), and because the laws are (mostly) egalitarian, with some glaring exceptions: the problem is changing day-to-day treatment and perception of women. That’s harder.

    But the solution is not to ignore it or to throw up your arms.

    If you want a relevant comparison, look at Taiwan. I live here now, and while there is still room to improve (there’s a lot of blatant sexism in wages and hiring processes, for example), Taiwan is doing pretty well compared to the rest of Asia in terms of women’s rights and treatment in society.

  72. Dan
    Dan August 14, 2012 at 9:40 pm | | Reply

    @ Jenna

    I absolutely think your initial argument is BS and emotionally charged based on a few of your own bad experiences. Mislead and misinterpret the author’s point. I’d be worried what you try to preach to your students. That is why you get my pounding. Good riddance.

  73. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 9:45 pm | | Reply

    In fact, it’s also fair to compare human rights in China to those in the rest of the world (people say China’s terrible vis-a-vis human rights: yes, it’s pretty bad, but many parts of Africa are worse).

    China doesn’t get some free pass because it’s a big country with a long cultural history or because some people in China can’t take the criticism (including its own government).

    You want a solution? Well, if I had that I’d fix America first, but here’s step 1:

    1.) Acknowledge the problem – and that goes for everyone.

    There you go.

  74. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 14, 2012 at 9:47 pm | | Reply

    Dan – you really think the argument that sexism is an issue in China is BS? You really don’t think any man – Chinese or otherwise – ever uses euphemisms to describe his preferred relationship in which he is dominant and his partner is submissive?

    Uh huh. OK. Enjoy your ignorance.

  75. Dan
    Dan August 14, 2012 at 9:54 pm | | Reply

    You are shooting the wrong target is the issue.

    For your own sanity, you should think about getting out of Taiwan.

  76. jenna cody
    jenna cody August 15, 2012 at 12:05 am | | Reply

    http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTGENDER/Resources/wp22.pdf – an older study, but a reliable one

    http://www.20-first.com/958-0-the-pay-gap-in-china.html – another good source

    http://ftp.iza.org/dp6252.pdf – also a problem in urban China

    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/metro/2009-12/14/content_9171245.htm – this is an editorial but he makes some good points, ones I agree with

    http://www.chinalawblog.com/2008/12/sexism_china_style_not_a_good.html – a blog post with some good links to follow

    My original point was on what some men desire in women being code words for sexist ideologies, but since so many people don’t even want to believe sexism exists in China, here you go.

  77. Sara
    Sara August 15, 2012 at 4:28 am | | Reply

    Reading all this has been interesting. I don’t know how many people will keep reading, they may be tired of it all, but I’ll chime in anyway. 🙂

    First, because I think it’s helpful for readers to have context for people’s posts, I’m a female American introvert, who’s lived in Japan before, who currently teaches English at a university in Korea, and who has been in a serious relationship with a Chinese man for about a year.

    On Jocelyn’s original blog: I have a similar experience. My personality type happens to be more valued in Asia than in the West, or at least in America, and I’ve received more compliments here than I ever did back home. It’s nice to be complimented, I think, on a surface level, and I’m not immediately suspicious of hidden sexism. I just enjoy getting a compliment for what was seen by many people as a deficit back home.

    I think that it’s sad how the pendulums swing so far. Sure, in America, there’s been a lot of work towards equality for women. And there have been some strides forward. Yet we will still see instances even in America like the examples of the two Chinese women jenna cody mentioned. A man will abuse his wife and she’ll get blamed for it. In some circles, she’ll be blacklisted by her whole neighborhood/town/family/whatever. Yes, even in America.

    And then, it seems like we’ve come to a point where, even if a Western woman TRULY wants nothing more than to stay at home and care for her family, she’s attacked by other WOMEN as being weak or a sell-out. This happens in America, and it’s also unfortunately very easy to happen when two cultures come in contact with each other; a Western woman who feels strongly about sexism may see an Asian woman in a position she would label as inferior and unequal. She may then accuse some (or all) men of the culture as being sexist and keeping the women down. She may then be very surprised when the men are upset about this charge and the women don’t take up arms for their rights. This is because, as I think Bruce has tried to point out (although a bit harshly) that this woman has a completely different worldview. She looks at something and sees sexism. Insiders in that culture don’t.

    We can’t simply say, “It doesn’t matter if insiders don’t see it. That in itself is proof of sexism!” What privileges one culture who has a construct of “sexism” to say that their culture should be the measuring stick for every other culture? If there’s debate about sexism in different cultures it has to go beyond Westerners, who have a strong cultural sense of sexism, insisting that other cultures are sexist, while those other cultures, who may have little or no cultural sense of that construct, insist they aren’t, and both sides become more and more enraged. First people need to honestly admit that they neither side have the cultural background of the other, no matter how long they’ve lived in the other land, and start the dialogue with respect for the differences.

    I’ve seen jenna cody being respectful. And I’ve seen her attacked by what seems to be only Chinese men. It’s sad. You say she doesn’t understand you all, and that respect is important in your culture, but you also don’t understand her, and you haven’t shown her respect. Instead of trying to understand her, you guys have, as she said, ignored her actual words and taken offense at what you imagined her to be saying. Then, instead of talking it out, you’ve thrown personal insults at her and attempted to belittle her intelligence.

    I can see you’re offended by what you take to be some kind of allegation that all Chinese men treat women poorly. jenna cody pointed this out, but I’ll do it again: she never made that kind of sweeping generalization. She spoke of “some”. That’s it. Your guys’ responses make it seem like you never carefully read her posts, you were so eager to try and tear into her. It doesn’t help your side of the argument to treat her that way. It doesn’t make me take you seriously, either.

    jenna cody, I think it may be helpful to say something like, “From a Western cultural perspective, there is sexism in China” rather than stating it as an unassailable fact. Westerners have come up with sexism, and by our definition, it does indeed exist almost everywhere. But that’s only if you look at the world through Western lenses. Western culture/thoughts/beliefs don’t necessarily equal truth/fact. I think that’s what Bruce is trying to say.

    And maybe to go so far as to realize (I don’t know for sure, maybe you already think this, but it doesn’t seem like it simply from your posts), not only is it okay to be an introvert, but it’s also okay to be a woman who really does just want to stay at home and take care of her family, who doesn’t mind if her husband never cooks or cleans, who’s totally okay with him making money and her doing household stuff. In your mind that may be sexism. You may think it’s unfair. But not every woman feels that way, not even every Western woman (although if they do, they have to keep silent or risk being belittled by other women in their society – a sad state).

    Abuse is a different matter than how people choose to arrange their domestic affairs. But yet again, it’s cultural, and even within cultures, it changes. 50 years ago many Americans would think nothing of spanking children as discipline – today most would call it child abuse. Even as certain cultures’ inside views as a whole on issues like sexism and abuse evolve and not everyone in a culture agrees with everyone else at any given time, in the same way I think a conversation like this needs to begin with acknowledgements that many of us are coming from completely different backgrounds and worldviews, that we can’t expect people from other cultures to think like or agree with us, but that never-the-less we should respect them.

  78. dingjie
    dingjie August 15, 2012 at 8:54 am | | Reply

    …….Sara …Yes…… You’re a smart woman
    jenna cody ……….I tell you
    Men must have a good work of the house car
    Woman’s request
    No car no money to at least have a house
    Chinese people are generally 20-30 years of marriage
    …. So you say that discrimination against women?
    Chinese woman … now very happy
    Really … if you are pretty long … do not work
    There will be many people like
    Chinese men do not care about the woman money or no money
    But it must be beautiful
    Chinese women do not care about a man handsome or ugly
    But must have money
    Handsome man in China … is the most pathetic …

  79. naomi
    naomi August 15, 2012 at 9:00 am | | Reply

    Thank you Sarah for bringing some calmness to this discussion. It would be great if we could all focus on being able to disagree without personally insulting each other.

  80. Dan
    Dan August 15, 2012 at 9:06 am | | Reply

    @ Sara
    Well said. Thank you. I won’t apologize though. I think you also understand why. Something to do with in-group privilege. My pride is also hurt. It has nothing to do with my gender. I am well aware from the beginning. I just chose to make everything loud and clear.

    Good input from you overall. I probably went too far. But I am not sorry.

  81. Bruce
    Bruce August 15, 2012 at 10:36 am | | Reply

    You can’t go to another country and expect everything to be similar back home.Oh yeah I heard that in Taiwan a man can marry 4 or 5 wives as long as the first wife says YES! That’s the law that in Taiwan so I don’t know. If I’m the president of China, everything will be changed. ” Change is here” hahahahhaha from sanitation , women’s rights, abortion, child abuse issues, men squatting down/loitering, personal hygiene, prostitution ( 1 thousand yrs business), anti bribery , executed all criminals, rapists ,child molestors, etc. You name it. I know how to fix China but a lot of high ranking officials have to die under my command. This is how I feel inside right now. You people have to understand that China is under communist system ( you can’t speak out on the news). When you talk about change , they shut you off already. In America , it’s different. The people are the gov’t that you can spread the news ( anything) and you will hear it all the way to Alaska.

    Jenna, let me ask you a question. How can Chinese women in China have more knowledges about women’s rights when they don’t have a voice for them? When a woman wants her voice to be heard, she gets stepped on. We always talk about women are equal to men but women only make 80 cents to a dollar compare to men. Within these few yrs by research stated that women in most fields , women are making more than men. Women have higher degrees than men . Why? Most jobs that designed for men are lost period. See I can be quiet , loud, childish, serious and anything you want me to but only the right timing will ignite the inner “me”. Lots of things you people don’t have to tell me because I understand already. ” I eat salt more than you eat rice”

    Bruce 🙂

  82. Pamela
    Pamela August 15, 2012 at 10:51 am | | Reply

    wow.. heated comments here lol …

    mmmm… In my case was different, I guess ppl in my company were expecting a more outgoing really sociable person… I dont consider myself as really introvert, but yeah Im more on the quite side and I get a lot of comments about how “different” I am from other foreigners (or the idea they have of how western ppl are)
    A female co-worker told me recently that because of my personality I can have a chinese boyfriend (yes,she putted as if it was a privilege) then added “Chinese dont like western girls because they are not easy to control” … later I asked my boyfriend “do u think western girls are hard to control? and what exactly do u want to control?” he said that most chinese girls like or should give “face” to the male partner by looking submissive but in reality they are more controlling than men. whether or not thats true I dont know, but I have met more chinese girls that are quite but with strong temper than men.
    Oh and by the way , in my case, Im the quite kinda shy one, my bf is the outgoing “cant stop talking” one… but he said he didnt notice I was shy until after we start dating, because with him I always talked a lot.. so my quite-ness wasnt a part of why he felt attracted to me …

  83. Dan
    Dan August 15, 2012 at 10:56 am | | Reply

    I think most Chinese men came to this blog all believe sexism exists in Asia, more than many other places. Nordics have the most gender equalities done through socialism policies. Even Chinese government has political agenda for it. The concept of sexism is culture specific. There are also Universal Declarations of Human Rights. Things are often twisted out of proportion by western views. It has nothing to do with the ability to handle criticism. To me, it is fact if you lived in western countries long enough too. Asia understates, and the west overreacts. I will agree the general awareness of sexism is not comparable. I just don’t see culture element plays big role in that.

    For someone who lives in Asia, I sure hope you have good understanding of the complexity of the issue. It is just a turn off when I read something to show the tone is off and misleading. An intelligent argument can do more harm than good sometimes. If you ever came to know some court proceedings before civil rights movement, every theory stood good grounds. It took years to attack “Separate but Equal” doctrine.

    Plenty of Chinese men care about the issue. Those are our mothers, wives and daughters. First step is to give women education. I will hate to see women are taught their culture is holding them back. I can’t see how that helps someone’s self-esteem. As a westerner (outsider) in Asia, you are sensitive about all kinds of issues. I can relate to that.

  84. Dan
    Dan August 15, 2012 at 12:12 pm | | Reply

    @Pamela
    Your boyfriend has given out the inside secret (damn!) about Chinese girls. Many are very passive aggressive. I found northerners to be more extroverted.

    I don’t think many Chinese guys are bothered by westerners being direct. It might take some time to get used to, but they most likely will come to appreciate that quality. This goes the other way when an more extroverted lady dates an introverted Chinese guy. It is often a good combination. Imagine two extroverts live together-it could be exhausting.

  85. dingjie
    dingjie August 15, 2012 at 12:56 pm | | Reply

    $500,000 for New Jersey school kids forced to eaton floor
    Reuters) – Seven students at a Camden, NewJersey, school forced to eat lunch on a gymnasium floor for two weeks aspunishment won a $500,000 legal settlement, theirattorney said on Tuesday.

    The 2008 incident involved fifth-gradestudents at the Charles Sumner Elementary School who were disciplined after onechild spilled water as he tried to lift a jug onto a cooler, said the lawyer,Alan SchorrThe students filed a federal lawsuitagainst the Camden Board of Education, which agreed to the settlement, theattorney said.

    He said the incident took place against abackdrop of discord between the black and Hispanic populations in theimpoverished southern New Jersey city. The children were HispanicSchorr said the vice principal, who wasblack, punished all 15 students in a bilingual class by making them eat offpaper liners normally used on lunch trays. (While there were 15 students in theclass, only seven sued.)

    The African American kids were eatingat tables, with trays, taunting these Hispanic kids who were forced to eat onthe ground,” Schorr said.

    The vice principal has since transferredThe children’s teacher was fired afterencouraging them to tell their parents about the punishment. The teacher won a$75,000 settlement earlier

  86. Bruce
    Bruce August 15, 2012 at 12:58 pm | | Reply

    @Dan,
    “Imagine two extroverts live together-it could be exhausting.” equals divorce rate in America. I’m doing tai chi to calm myself down now :).

    @Pamela,
    I love heat in anything! :). I like exciting conversation not like dragging a dead fish around w/o fishy odor.

    Please western men marry more chinese women and see what kind of trouble you get into assuming those women are submissive and passive. ” when fishing, you need worm to lure the fish and then *bang* you’re trapped you idiot ” Some chinese women ok not all chinese women are like this hahahahhaha lol. don’t be scare! I love it !! Love heated debate..

  87. dingjie
    dingjie August 15, 2012 at 1:03 pm | | Reply

    Leila Tarantino, Florida Mom,Says Officer ‘Forcibly’ Removed Her Tampon During Traffic Stop
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/10/leila-tarantino-florida-tampon-strip-search-traffic-stop_n_1764218.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

    ……Americans are really cute …

  88. dingjie
    dingjie August 15, 2012 at 1:06 pm | | Reply

    147 Fans
    01:29 PM on 08/10/2012
    “Leila Tarantino has a long track recordof breaking the law. She’s been arrested multiple times for DUI, domestic battery, driving with a suspended licence,violating her probation. She is a habitual offender, which the cops would haveimmediately found out when they ran her name.”

  89. dingjie
    dingjie August 15, 2012 at 1:24 pm | | Reply

    ..Yes
    Northerners more outgoing
    I was north of Dalian but I now work in Beijing
    Southern men are quiet

  90. SBC
    SBC August 15, 2012 at 5:21 pm | | Reply

    hi, dont know if I want to join the heated argument, as it seems to be off topic what Jocelyn spoke about. But not to gloss over anyones points: sexism exists, it exists everywhere in varying degrees and neither should we generalize nor jump on people who bring it up. However the quietitide Jocelyn spoke of does not have much to do with it. Confounding those two takes away from seriousness of the issue of sexism, and unnecessarily complicates what the article was about. As far as I know introversion and extraversion was never gender specific. Its an entirely other issue. And I dont know much about China per se but the asian countries I have been to and belong in value traits that you could chalk up to an introvert vs an extrovert. There is also some premium placed on silence. Again not in terms of whats expected of a particular gender.

    To your point jena cody: Of course sexism is horrid and as a woman I would be first one to stand up for it. However if we make sweeping generalizations, it hurts peoples indentity. Not all chinese men might be sexist. Unfortunately thats the reality of tackling complicated issues like that and a comments section of an article that doesnt have much to do with it might not be a good place. However I agree with Sara that the personal comments on her intelligence are uncalled for and childish.

  91. SBC
    SBC August 15, 2012 at 5:36 pm | | Reply

    did I say stand up for it! O_O.. stand up AGAINST it… *shivers*

  92. Canadian-Born Chinese Guy
    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy August 15, 2012 at 7:44 pm | | Reply

    Some time ago, I was watching a talk show on TV and there was a white western woman speaking about introverts and extroverts. She made a comparison between the West and the East: In the West, we celebrate extroverts as people to admire and look up to, but that’s not the case in the East where there is more emphasis on the qualities of introverts?

    This got me thinking. Living in urban Canada, you meet people of various cultures and ethnic backgrounds. If I were to generalize based on my own personal observations, I never really felt that certain cultures were more introverted or extroverted compared to others.

    I’ve never been to Asia in my life, so I can’t say much about society there. I think that different cultures have different ways of expressing their introversion and extroversion, but I am under the impression that the percentage of introverts and extroverts is more or less the same across all cultures.

  93. Dan
    Dan August 15, 2012 at 8:01 pm | | Reply
  94. cvaguy
    cvaguy August 15, 2012 at 9:49 pm | | Reply

    @Dan – Thanks for the link.

    That is very moving speech. I can see her in me 100%… it was a long journey to come from introverts to extroverts, but I enjoy it a lot. I don’t need to go to the woods, I collect my thoughts and innovate next new thing on the train 🙂
    I agree with the notion that there is no absolute introverts or extroverts. On either end of the extremes are mad people. Most of us are in between, either by nature or by training. Nowadays, I consider myself on the extroverts spectrum through training and practice, even though I an an introvert by nature. Don’t mean to offend anyone, but I love bubbly type of women. I think they are more fun to be with.

    I just want to stay away from the heated debate. I think it is off topic and does not serve its purpose. Peace.

  95. Dan
    Dan August 15, 2012 at 11:08 pm | | Reply

    Good debates, hopefully civil, can provoke mutual learning.
    Extrovert needs to learn to listen, and introvert needs to start talking. Both men and women can do just that. Extroverts can make great friends. Introverts value fewer and deeper relationships.
    Introverts are often not shy. They are energized by being alone. That is all. Cvaguy, I thought you are busy chatting on trains. 🙂

  96. dingjie
    dingjie August 16, 2012 at 8:22 am | | Reply

    Interestingly ….If the woman take care of children
    Does not work
    Stay at home
    = .. discrimination Well …… I’ll take care of children …
    I cook I clean the house
    Morning my wife to go to work
    I should say … dear A pleasant work
    The night my wife to go home
    I should be handed the shoes Hard work of the ..
    Need to massage it.
    Which a woman is willing to … really
    Western women can be really cute …

  97. Cvaguy
    Cvaguy August 16, 2012 at 8:32 am | | Reply

    @Dan- train ride has both directions. So I do both:)
    In my case introvert is shy. I hid in my room most of my early childhood.
    Nowadays it is my second nature to connect with strangers.

  98. Bruce
    Bruce August 16, 2012 at 9:07 am | | Reply

    Actually, I’m an extrovert and I hate to hide in my room. I love the outdoor activities and everything outside the home but sometimes I like to relax at home. My job is related to people and I do love it sometimes

  99. dingjie
    dingjie August 16, 2012 at 9:52 am | | Reply

    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy You native of where?

  100. dingjie
    dingjie August 16, 2012 at 10:36 am | | Reply

    The pity is that you are not the one who will accompany me to the end.

    …………….People have different personalities
    ………..So happy is the most important
    Inward or outward
    …………….The landscape we see is the same
    ……………..

  101. namenotgiven
    namenotgiven August 16, 2012 at 2:46 pm | | Reply

    Well, pluck me like a chicken! I am starting to get cross eyed trying to follow this discussion.

  102. ygr
    ygr August 16, 2012 at 9:39 pm | | Reply

    In my experience most people in China don’t seem to be afraid to start a conversation with sb who’s introverted, in comparison, it always seems hard to get to know people back at home with my being introverted. Being a foreigner probably helps starting a conversation in China. I was never one to actively start a conversation with strangers, but this doesn’t mean that I don’t like talking to people or making friends (as is often misunderstood).

    This doesn’t mean that introversion is always accepted as a normal treat here in China. A Chinese friend of mine used to tell me how people think he’s really weird because he often declines invitations to go out with his friends and instead prefers to stay at home painting. He doesn’t care though what people think of him, which is good.

  103. Canadian-Born Chinese Guy
    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy August 17, 2012 at 12:15 am | | Reply

    That’s the one, the author Susan Cain!

    dingjie,
    I was born in Montreal, raised there and in Ontario. I now live in Northern Alberta.

  104. dingjie
    dingjie August 17, 2012 at 8:15 am | | Reply

    I said your native of China where

  105. dingjie
    dingjie August 17, 2012 at 8:19 am | | Reply

    ygr A Chinese friend of mine used to tell me how people think he’s really weird because he often declines invitations to go out with his friends and instead prefers to stay at home painting. He doesn’t care though what people think of him, which is good. Some Chinese people …

  106. Canadian-Born Chinese Guy
    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy August 17, 2012 at 10:14 pm | | Reply

    Sorry, dingjie, but I don’t consider myself a native of China.

    My parents were born in Hong Kong. I was born in Canada so I am a native of Canada.

  107. dingjie
    dingjie August 18, 2012 at 9:35 am | | Reply

    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy Sure enough, Guangdong
    Many Canadians of Chinese descent, many of the ancestral home of Guangdong
    Many Chinese-American Fujian
    That your height must not exceed 5 feet 11 inches

  108. Canadian-Born Chinese Guy
    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy August 18, 2012 at 2:25 pm | | Reply

    Yes, I’m just of average height. On my Dad’s side (Cantonese) of the family, I have some male relatives well over 6 feet and female cousins 5′ 8″ to 5′ 9″, which is quite rare for Cantonese people.

  109. dingjie
    dingjie August 19, 2012 at 7:35 am | | Reply

    Canadian-Born Chinese Guy says I was in high school in Guangzhou
    Seen some 6 feet of student
    Guangdong men over the age of 25 … really short
    Perhaps our high school six feet of normal height
    But I still feel Guangdong men and women is very short

  110. dingjie
    dingjie August 19, 2012 at 7:39 am | | Reply

    …More than 25 years old

  111. dingjie
    dingjie August 19, 2012 at 10:04 am | | Reply

    These are just some of the ghoulish drivers who were caught on camera slowing down to take pictures of a lorry crash in which a young woman was fighting for her life.
    Police officers attending the ‘horrific’ accident on the M1 in Northamptonshire were shocked to see drivers crawling along the to get a better look at the scene and take pictures. The quick-thinking officers set up their own camera and recorded all the motorists on the opposite carriageway who used their phones while driving – itself an offence As the police caught the careless drivers, the 21-year-old female trucker lay trapped inside her wagon for four-and-a-half hours battling to stay alive. A staggering 80 people were seen using their camera phones to get a picture of the smash ….This is England …

  112. szewei
    szewei August 20, 2012 at 6:55 pm | | Reply

    wow what n interesting topic…s n introvert myself,,,i think this personality is very unique in some ways…previously i always thought introvert is a loser in life compare with extrovert but now i dont think so…i m now trying 2 reduce my introvert level n 2 increase my extrovert level by being outgoing more whenever i got the chance…my career now is towards meeting more clients while i m selling company products…despite not getting high profits,,,i m very happy doing sales where most introverts will not b picking sales up in their career after graduation

  113. Sara (Living a Dream in China)
    Sara (Living a Dream in China) August 20, 2012 at 10:13 pm | | Reply

    @ dingjie “I would looooove to hear from a Western girl who has personal experience from dating a Chinese guy”

    Based on living in China for 2,5 years and having conversations and making friend with other Western women, I think that many of them don’t see Chinese men as potential boyfriends. For the Chinese men are more feminine, short and they don’t behave like men those women are used to liking. Some of them might change their minds and after a while start seeing handsome Chinese men on the streets 😉

    I also think that those Chinese men who date Western woman are a bit different from the “average Chinese man” (whatever that is). My Cantonese boyfriend is a good example of this. He made the first move (wasn’t shy as Chinese guys are said to be), does more household work than me and doesn’t mind that I’m a bit heavier than he is (we are about the same hight).

    Also as Western women dating Chinese men are a bit special. We do find Chinese men attractive, some of us even prefer them. Language issues might not be as big of a problem as someone might think because some of us can speak the language. For example me and my boyfriend have only one common language and it’s Mandarin.

    So I might not be a traditional Western/Finnish woman and my boyfriend isn’t a traditional Chinese man. We both have some traditional beliefs and manners in us, but there are a lot of specialities that make us interested in each other.

    And then if I would compare my self to Chinese girls, yes it would be very different from my boyfriend to date a Chinese girl than to date me. I can’t and don’t want to be as cute they are, my clothing style is completely different. I also have my opinion and ideas, I don’t bend to his “rules”. In many ways it would be so much easier for my boyfriend to date a local girl, but for some weird reason he prefers to be with me 🙂

    This comment is already a one kilometer long, so better end it here.

  114. Dan
    Dan August 20, 2012 at 10:52 pm | | Reply

    @Dingjie
    People won’t be able to control who they are attracted to. If the desire is strong enough to act on it, don’t get carry away when you are rejected. Western girls who like Asian guys are in the minority. But the possibility of someone who likes a particular individual is always there. Also keep in mind western girls are not the only women in this world. The same can be said for Chinese men.

  115. dingjie
    dingjie August 21, 2012 at 8:18 am | | Reply

    @Sara Yes I know Nordic Girls high

    I’ve been to France, Italy and Germany
    German girl is high
    If a Western woman does not mind a Chinese man Height
    Then he will pursue her
    I know that some Western women like Chinese men
    Perhaps you have never been to China
    You may think that China is very … backward Chinese people in the factory … work like a slave
    But many ….. Europeans think so
    Western woman of Chinese men China has 1.4 billion people
    If you are in Beijing and Shanghai
    You will see different parts of the Chinese men
    If you are in Paris Chinatown
    You may only see Wenzhou
    People
    If you are in New York’s Chinatown
    You should see the Fujian
    And Guangdong
    People
    Some beautiful long handsome
    Some look good and some ugly
    Some tall, some short

  116. dingjie
    dingjie August 21, 2012 at 8:27 am | | Reply

    If Bruce Lee considered handsome Chinese man
    I think a lot of young Chinese men handsome than Bruce Lee.
    ….. Yes, I think I’m handsome than Bruce Lee is a big skeleton Chinese men 184CM
    If I go to the South
    I high
    But I am in Dalian
    18-25 year-old male
    I’m not very high

  117. dingjie
    dingjie August 21, 2012 at 8:45 am | | Reply

    @Dan Eastern Russia, some people like the man in northern China Russian women like China Japan Korea I know that a Chinese women working in Russia
    She was a year of more than 300 Russian women and Chinese men married
    Chinese men and Russian women dating
    Add up to more than the other Caucasian countries women

  118. Dan
    Dan August 21, 2012 at 9:30 pm | | Reply

    Inter-cultural relationships are interesting, but people put too much more into it. Much easier to treat all girls (Chinese or not) like normal human beings. I am not sure Russians like Chinese men more than average. Some people like to think that way.

  119. dingjie
    dingjie August 22, 2012 at 10:32 am | | Reply

    @…….Chinese men marry white women is the Russian woman
    You may not know ….. ……. Russians Mongol descent

  120. Dan
    Dan August 24, 2012 at 4:50 pm | | Reply

    Western girls like two types of Chinese guys mostly: the ones with traditional values in them and comfortable to be so; others with western male qualities trapped in a Chinese body. Basically someone is at ease with certain level of maturity. Another big challenge in China is lack of independent thinking and corruption. That tends to put western girls off. If you are introverted, it is not necessarily a deal breaker. But most of them don’t date Chinese men.

  121. Bruce
    Bruce August 26, 2012 at 10:19 am | | Reply

    Yes most don’t date Chinese men is understandable due to many factors. Basically, Chinese men look different and people are not used to unfamilar looks. Like westerners who order chinese food from a restaurant.. They don’t order other dishes except for the ones they are familiar with. Yes talking alot will make you stand out a little bit so you will have no chances. You know most women complain to me that their bfs/husbands don’t communicate with them so being quiet will cause you more problems too.

  122. Dan
    Dan August 26, 2012 at 1:14 pm | | Reply

    I commented on Chinese in China. I myself can’t really speak for ABC or BBC. I think it is tough to grow up being a minority.

    Most western women who ventured into China will at least have more curiosities about the culture in general, thus more adventurous. But most still opt out not to get involved with Chinese there. Chinese in China don’t need to defend certain stereotypes, but have to work on other problems they created. Interracial relationships in China have to deal with more culture differences as expected. If you are ABC dating another race, it is often called assimilation.
    To Chinese in China, being Chinese is actually an advantage. I hope people don’t give that up if they are interested to date a foreigner. But there is also tendency to mix nationalism into the whole culture thing. In either US or China, some men are only after face value. White women don’t need to take Chinese boyfriends as status symbol.

  123. Caseyorourke
    Caseyorourke August 27, 2012 at 5:05 am | | Reply

    One day in Yanji we hailed a cab. After my wife, a native born Yanji girl, now a US citizen, told the driver where we wanted to go, he looked at my wife wearing a long sleeve pink Ralph Lauren polo shirt, Levis and Bearpaw boots, made the remark, “You dress like an American.”
    To which my wife replied, “I am an American,”
    The diver quickly came back, “Bull S#!t, your Chinese, you talk like a local.”
    She laughed then turne to me and said in perfect English what he said. The driver’s mouth dropped open when she started talking in English, not that he could understand anything, but realized she was in fact an American.

  124. Caseyorourke
    Caseyorourke August 27, 2012 at 5:06 am | | Reply

    One day in Yanji we hailed a cab. After my wife, a native born Yanji girl, now a US citizen, told the driver where we wanted to go, he looked at my wife wearing a long sleeve pink Ralph Lauren polo shirt, Levis and Bearpaw boots, made the remark, “You dress like an American.”
    To which my wife replied, “I am an American,”
    The diver quickly came back, “Bull S#!t, your Chinese, you talk like a local.”
    She laughed then turned to me and said in perfect English what he said. The driver’s mouth dropped open when she started talking in English, not that he could understand anything, but realized she was in fact an American.

  125. Dan
    Dan August 27, 2012 at 3:51 pm | | Reply

    I got mistaken sometimes too. It depends where you are. Big metro cities like Beijing and Shanghai, most people stop associate your language skills with your overall background. Many have excellent command of English. I always tell people I am Chinese.
    Hangzhou feels more like China on your mind. Shanghai is a different story. If you go to places where western tourists frequent, people are less curious as well. In a country that big, you can always find people fit certain profiles.

  126. Jason
    Jason August 28, 2012 at 10:18 am | | Reply

    People here needs to stop spewing nonsense how Western women won’t date Chinese men….

    seriously, that type of backwards thinking gets on my nerves.

    I have many Chinese friends, and I would say most of them can date a Western women if they want to. And none of them are Chinese-American, they’re all just Chinese. They’re all regular, just normal people.

    Don’t know what some of you guys are thinking about.

  127. Dan
    Dan August 28, 2012 at 10:53 am | | Reply

    @ Jason
    I will clarify and be done with this whole thing.
    If Jocelyn can represent majority of western women, we will see a lot of more such dating. She herself will tell you the reality is different.
    I assume you are in Shanghai? Westerners in Shanghai tend to date other nationals other than Chinese because they have more opportunities to meet in that city. A small number including foreign students will date local Chinese. If you go inland china, you can actually find more westerners date Chinese men. I do not know want kind of social circle you are in. It is simply not the case that most western women date Chinese while in China.
    The fact most western women won’t date Chinese men is not just coming from prejudice. A lot of them just give up the idea to have a peace of mind. Some are very curious to try it. Most men are not daring to pursue or don’t know what to do. So the reasons are all different too. On the other hand, vast majority of western single men will have experiences dating local Chinese women. Such discussions can be interesting to some and irritating to others.

  128. Dan
    Dan August 28, 2012 at 11:07 am | | Reply

    I will add the longer someone stays in China and remain single, the more likely she will date locals. Majority of westerners won’t stay for more than two years. It is very different from immigration scenario happened in US.

  129. Bruce
    Bruce August 29, 2012 at 10:09 am | | Reply

    You know people don’t want to learn new things about other cultures. It’s time consuming!! Dating is okay for now but maintaining any relationship is tough. You guys have to be like me.. Going head on with any problems. If you ignore the problems, they never stop coming.

  130. Bruce
    Bruce August 30, 2012 at 1:22 pm | | Reply

    I haven’t checked it yet 🙂 . Yes, you must need a circle of friends in order to make it work.

  131. Bruce
    Bruce August 30, 2012 at 3:59 pm | | Reply

    Jason,

    That’s great that your friends and you can date western women if you guys want to. We are just a very small group of asian/chinese men out there. Dan and everyone here are talking about the majority which is more important. Yes , be a person out of the ordinary can get women attracted to you. Western women want you to express everything in the open even you have a 7 yrs itch, you have to disclose it to them. I, myself, felt weird too when I went to china and I’m a chinese guy. Western women don’t like uptight men (most chinese men). They like care free atmosphere settings. We have a chinese saying ” In order to catch a big fish, let the line loose”. Just like fishing.. If the big fish is not comfortible testing out the bait like pulling ,nibbling it , it won’t swallow the bait . Women in general ( regardless of race) like to be comfortible first and slowly you can show them your true qualities. If you can hold a woman’s hand etc ( regardless of race), other things will be easier and easier to accomplish. This is the basis of picking up girls/women. So please make women feel comfortible. I always talk about expressing yourself here and also expressing your body language and your physique ( if you have zero muscles, work on getting them. it took me yrs ). Different women are attracted to different personalities so you have to present the right vibe to attract the women you want to attract. Why I can talk to any people I want to? Lots of training period. A woman who is an extrovert, most likely her match will be an introvert to balance her attitude, temper and aggressive personality. Not to say that her man who is an introvert is a sissy or a dummy. From my experience , when I exploded in an argument my wife usually eased off a little bit so I could cool down and vice versa when she exploded. This is called compromise in a relationship no matter who is at fault. It doesn’t matter what you are, compromise and that’s the secret that most people will NEVER tell you. We as chinese people always use the attitude ,” RESPECT ” in our daily lives. Actually, showing respect too much can and will hurt you in the long run because westerners consider it to be weak ;however, you show “respect” but you’re not weak then they will admire you. Most people til today can not believe I can do so many jobs/projects that are out of my league. Surprise Surprise! :). I’m not bragging about myself but sometimes it really amazes me what I’ve done. Yes, women are into men who are into HARDCORE hobbies/projects/stuff etc.

  132. Dan
    Dan September 1, 2012 at 10:42 pm | | Reply

    Well, I guess I will say something more encouraging about cross-cultural relationships.
    I think many Chinese males are equally attractive when it comes to dating western women. You do need to get out of the victim mindset when the reality is working against you. Media in general is not helping. Western media is either biased or does not know how to talk about Asian males besides the existing stereotypes. Chinese media is full of nationalism. I think a confident and genuine guy has a shot with most women. Many Chinese girls grow up with poverty. So the inspiration could be different when it comes to finding a partner. Most western women look for other qualities.

    Role models in China is harder to come by. You can always work it out as long as you focus on the relationship. Given how big the culture differences are, your life can be really interesting. Men are also expected to lead in any culture.

  133. aiyangxifu
    aiyangxifu September 13, 2012 at 12:20 pm | | Reply

    USA president Obama is an introvert actually.

    John Heilemann, New York magazine’s main political correspondent, talking about Obama: I don’t think he doesn’t like people. I know he doesn’t like people. He’s not an extrovert; he’s an introvert. I’ve known the guy since 1988.

    Obama’s own words: When I lived in Hawaii, I’d take a drive from Waikiki to where my grandmother lived—up along the coast heading east, and it takes you past Hanauma Bay. When my mother was pregnant with me she’d take a walk along the beach. . . . You park your car. If the waves are good you sit and watch and ponder it for a while. You grab your car keys in the towel. And you jump in the ocean. And you have to wait until there is a break in the waves. . . . And you put on a fin—and you only have one fin—and if you catch the right wave you cut left because left is west. . . . Then you cut down into the tube there. You might see the crest rolling and you might see the sun glittering. You might see a sea turtle in profile, sideways, like a hieroglyph in the water. . . . And you spend an hour out there. And if you’ve had a good day you’ve caught six or seven good waves and six or seven not so good waves. And you go back to your car. With a soda or a can of juice. And you sit. And you can watch the sun go down …

    A classic introvert behavior.

  134. askdsk
    askdsk September 19, 2012 at 10:14 am | | Reply

    Another famous example would be Lincoln. Introverts tend to be deep thinkers too. Obama to me is a good case that his cultural heritage propels his rise. If you read his biography and the new book “Barack Obama: The Story”, it shares his journey to discovery himself and finally embrace his black identity despite the fact he is raised white. But the society treats him as a black president (Jim Crow legacy?).
    For Asians there has been so much talk about acceptance and assimilation. I think the ones that rise to the top all embrace their Asian heritage. Even in dating, your cross cultural background would be an advantage when your language is not an issue and you treat other cultures as equals. He is also an example of “special” bi-racial children.

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