On Working-Class White Women, Interracial Dating and China | Speaking of China

88 Responses

  1. Jenna Cody
    Jenna Cody August 5, 2013 at 2:34 am | | Reply

    I’ll see if I can find that in Taiwan without having to order it from abroad. Looks interesting.

    It may be a part of the reason why white women in China don’t seem interested in dating Chinese men, but I would say if so, it’s a very small part. It wouldn’t surprise me to meet upper middle class white women who just sort of assume that the only guys for them are also white, but really, what I’ve come across in terms of reasons why white women don’t date Chinese men as often is basic, obvious cultural differences that can’t be ignored or gotten around easily that happen to come to the forefront more in foreign woman-Asian man relationships.

    Things like family expectations – the role of the in-laws, especially the mother in law, expected gender roles and ‘femininity’ and grooming, expectations of having kids, expectations of how to divvy up housework and domestic work, expectations of education, income and even intelligence, assumptions about the acceptability of extramarital affairs, expectations of who will be the ‘decision maker’ or ‘head of the family’ etc..

    I don’t think I need to go into detail in terms of what these differences might be. I think you know as well as I do how these issues could affect white woman/Asian male relationships in Asia (if the Asian guy was raised in a Western culture I would guess they’d be much less of a problem). You know as well that these are issues that seem to constantly plague the white woman-Asian man dating world, even though individuals may be able to escape them and, of course, not every person represents every aspect of their home culture. Individuals are great that way!

    I honestly think that’s why white women dating/married to Taiwanese men seems to be on the rise here in Taiwan, and most white women living in Taiwan I’ve talked to are either interested in, in favor of or actively dating Taiwanese men, but the same does not appear to be happening in other East Asian countries. The difference, to me, is clear: Taiwan is the most progressive in terms of women’s rights and equality in all of East Asia. A woman dating Taiwanese men is more likely to find one that leans feminist or is at least open to feminist ideas than women dating men anywhere else in East Asia.

    And that seems, to me, to make all the difference. They seem to come into play much more than in CCRs with white men and Asian women, for obvious reasons (women raised in Western cultures are more likely to have views that do not and cannot jive with traditional Chinese values).

    I too would feel this way: were I not already married, I’d happily date Asian men (I find Asian guys to be very good looking generally) but I would absolutely only stay with a man with feminist ideals similar to my own. Like he’d stand in solidarity with me, not side with family against me. Like he’d embrace a child-free life. Like he’d fully pull his weight at home. Like he’d understand that a 小三 is absolutely not an acceptable thing. Like he’d *not* have any crazy notions about being ‘the decision-maker’ or expect me to earn less, be educated-but-not-as-educated-as-he-is, not expect me to act less clever than he is, or expect me to act more stereotypically feminine.

    Those guys exist in Taiwan, I think moreso than in the rest of Asia (as I’ve said before one of my best Taiwanese guy friends is a total feminist, and all of my guy friends here in general are very supportive of women’s rights and egalitarianism).

    And that makes all the difference, really.

    That’s really, truly the heart of the issue IMHO.

    I know it may not be seen as politically correct to come right out and say that the cultural differences are often (not always, of course) irreconcilable, but it’s so clearly where the issue lies.

    So here I sit, hoping feminism makes more inroads in Asia, so women around the world can celebrate more equality, and men around the world can understand the importance of that equality!
    Jenna Cody recently posted..Sun Moon Mainlanders

  2. Luke
    Luke August 5, 2013 at 4:46 am | | Reply

    Agree with Jenna Cody 110%.

  3. chinaelevatorstories
    chinaelevatorstories August 5, 2013 at 7:26 am | | Reply

    I think you’re mentioning an important factor, Jocelyn – the thing with the bullying. Maybe this is something that made you feel like you don’t belong or that you’re different from the other kids your age. I’ve had similar experiences and I think that this is one of the reasons why I eventually came to China. It’s probably not one of the more obvious ones, but I’m pretty sure that this was one of the things that triggered the wish to go abroad for me. The bullying did give me the feeling that I was different and I found out later that I really am different from around 80% of the population in that I’m highly sensitive (and that this is innate and I can’t change it even if I wanted to, here’s more information on it if you’re interested: http://www.hsperson.com). This sounds a bit off topic, but I actually think that many of the female bloggers who are dating Chinese guys are highly sensitive too, just an impression I get from reading those blogs. Not sure about the whole working female thing, this seems to be a study from the US, so I’m not sure if it would also hold true for European females in general.
    chinaelevatorstories recently posted..Top 10 posts on China Elevator Stories

  4. Jenna Cody
    Jenna Cody August 5, 2013 at 7:36 am | | Reply

    “Maybe this is something that made you feel like you don’t belong or that you’re different from the other kids your age. I’ve had similar experiences and I think that this is one of the reasons why I eventually came to China. It’s probably not one of the more obvious ones, but I’m pretty sure that this was one of the things that triggered the wish to go abroad for me.”

    This may also be true for me.

    I wasn’t bullied in high school, but I had few friends, and only three good friends (one of whom I didn’t even like all that much, but deep down she was a good person). Of those three, only two went to my school! I *was* bullied in junior high, and have always felt like the ‘weird kid’. It didn’t help that I just didn’t fit into that small town’s culture (think young non-religious clumsy, bookworm budding feminist in a conservative, religious town where soccer is king and most classmates’ mothers were housewives).

    I haven’t connected that to my desire to go abroad – for me it was never to escape, but to bring more into my orbit – but it may be related somehow in ways I’ve never considered.

  5. David
    David August 5, 2013 at 8:06 am | | Reply

    Working class or not, the white women who date and marry non-whites of any age group is pretty small and are restricted to the confines of blogs such as these. Sad but true! And one more thing..the working class white women who date and marry Chinese or Asian men probably come from the west coast or Hawaii. I definitely do not see any working class white women with Asian husbands or boyfriends in West Virginia, the whitest working class state you will ever find.

  6. David
    David August 5, 2013 at 8:09 am | | Reply

    “why white women don’t date Chinese men as often is basic, obvious cultural differences that can’t be ignored or gotten around easily that happen to come to the forefront more in foreign woman-Asian man relationships.”

    @Jenna Cody:

    Will agree with you if you find more white women dating second of third generation Chinese and Asian men in the US…not the case!! Appearance has everything to do with it!

  7. askdsk
    askdsk August 5, 2013 at 8:09 am | | Reply

    It is counter-intuitive to think working class is less racist while history tells different stories. Those racial clashes often keep the wages low. Working class whites might have closer confrontation with other minority groups to compete for few jobs. Once you go up the social ladder, it is less obvious how discrimination works. The author’s argument makes certain senses – once you feel rejected, you feel more sympathetic with other oppressed groups. When it comes dating in China, the most cited reason is lack of attraction to Chinese men, not cultural difference. Chinese men don’t have black stud or Latin lover stereotypes to get lucky to begin with.
    In terms of how people comes to understand their own prejudices and privileges, I am not sure working class fare better. Most social progress is led by more educated groups. It is hard to change the establishment when you don’t even know how the system works.
    This blog talks a lot about race, gender and culture factors in dating. I think another more important factor across cultures is social class. Working class women end up marry someone in the same class either black or white because they don’t have other options.

  8. Jenna Cody
    Jenna Cody August 5, 2013 at 10:26 am | | Reply

    David – I’m from New York and I see plenty of this kind of cross-cultural dating when I go home to visit.

    Anyway, it’s been my observation from afar that white women dating Asian men is clearly on the rise in the USA. They’re even starting to break into the media as romantic leads alongside white or non-Asian women.

    I’ve never in all my time in Asia heard a white woman cite lack of attraction to Asian men from a racial standpoint as the reason for not dating them, whereas I hear the “culture” reason all the time. One whiff of “he’ll stand with his parents against me” or “he doesn’t do housework” and that’s that. At least in my observation.

    Do you really think that Western women are totally fine, generally, with cultural expectations held by many Chinese men (not all! I really want to make that clear)? If so, I suspect you don’t know that many Western women.

  9. Jenna Cody
    Jenna Cody August 5, 2013 at 10:34 am | | Reply

    Even a quick search for “why don’t western women date asian men” comes up with the top hits citing cultural differences.

    And this: http://languageboat.com/2013/06/18/10-reasons-taiwanese-guys-dont-date-western-women/

    …from the ‘perspective of Taiwanese men’, although I don’t know how many Taiwanese men that blogger interviewed. Note that even the Taiwanese men cite culture differences (‘the relationship between his wife and his mother’ – translation: a Western woman isn’t going to let her mother in law tell her what to do. A Chinese or Taiwanese woman may not either, but it’s more likely that she’ll understand the expectations involved and if she avoids meeting them, will do so indirectly rather than just saying ‘no, I’m not going to do that’. Which a Western woman would see as protecting her autonomy, and yet an Asian man or mother in law might see as ‘not respecting family’ and ‘being selfish’ or ‘difficult’).

    Although plenty of Taiwanese friends have said that if a man marries a Western woman, his parents generally back off because they are perfectly aware that they can’t expect of her what they might expect of a Taiwanese daughter-in-law. Quote from a student: “If you had married a Taiwanese man it would be OK because his mother and father would think ‘oh she is a 老外 so we can’t tell her what to do!’ But because I am Taiwanese my in-laws really expect me to do what they say and they are so angry when I don’t do it!”
    Jenna Cody recently posted..Sun Moon Mainlanders

  10. Jenna Cody
    Jenna Cody August 5, 2013 at 10:43 am | | Reply

    This is kind of backed up by the fact that here in Taiwan white (or foreign, I don’t wanna say just white although they are mostly white) women date Taiwanese guys all the time and it ain’t no big thang. Almost all of my single foreign female friends are or have done so, and those who haven’t are interested. You see this pairing out and about pretty often. It’s really not that rare at all, to the point where if you said “white women don’t find Asian guys attractive” a few clueless expat men might agree with you, but the vast majority would say “huh? What’re you smoking?”

    Even the ones who are attached – like me and some of my friends – find Asian men attractive.

    Taiwanese men are culturally different (very much so in some ways) but ethnically mostly the same (with some aboriginal and Japanese genetic influences). What’s the common denominator between China, where foreign women and Chinese men dating is rare, and Taiwan, where it’s not rare at all?

    Culture. Not race.
    Jenna Cody recently posted..Sun Moon Mainlanders

  11. Le
    Le August 5, 2013 at 10:52 am | | Reply

    I agree that people get benefits from certain perception will defend this perception intentionally or unintentionally, people get less benefit care less about it. It plays a big part in racism, but I am not sure whether race is the most important thing in Asian-Western relationships.

    I really dislike the bullying phenomena in US, it seems the culture here values physical strong and appearance more than intelligence. It is the opposite in China, the “nerds” is on top of the food chain. Students with straight A get all the attention and girls. Nerds do not bully other people, bullying is never been an issue in China.

    From my observation in US, Asian man and white female couples are both very intelligent and well educated. I am not surprised that Jocelyn mentioned that this pair has the highest combine income in US in a previous blog.

    It is clear both Jocelyn and her husband are very smart. Your peers bullied you became you are not shallow as them and you are smarter than them. They knew it and they needed the bullying to keep them happy. Do not feel bad it happened, in another way, it is a compliment.

  12. askdsk
    askdsk August 5, 2013 at 11:43 am | | Reply

    I won’t take people’s words for where they stand. You have to walk the talk. If you take a poll to ask how many parents in America agree with diversity at school, most of them will say it is required. When the schools are forced to be integrated, the same parents will show up and protest the poor minority kids are damaging the overall learning.
    I have personally know a few women who marry Asian men from Asia. They all have lived in Asia and all of them shared the same experience similar to Jocelyn’s. When they first arrived in Asia, none of them found Asian men attractive. The longer they stayed there, the more they changed. But majority of the population still won’t date outside their race. It is not all because they are avert to it. I think people can be attractive to one particular person. But it won’t be the preference to most women that Asian men is dating material. Culture difference can be a consideration. But it comes up more after you start a relationship. I don’t think most white women find Asian men attractive even among those live in Asia. However, the attitude to other minority groups are more favorable in comparison. I think it has a lot to do with physique, same way most men would care about a woman’s body until you look beyond the obvious.

  13. chen gang
    chen gang August 5, 2013 at 1:55 pm | | Reply

    before reading this, i would’ve guessed that the more education people have the more open-minded they become, therefore, easier for them to accept/engage with people from other background. after reading this, i realize that it may not have anything to do with education, at least statistically speaking.

    The root of the issue is empathy, we may develop empathy via personal experiences, education, up-bring, etc. But, none of this factors will guarantee it. The seed of empathy is in EVERYONE of us, however, it is hard to predict how and when it will flourish — education alone certainly will neither accelerate nor suffocate this process.

  14. Claire
    Claire August 5, 2013 at 2:05 pm | | Reply

    I am working class and I suppose I met my boyfriend because of my background as we met while doing a working class job but I don’t think our situation was an example of this theory. I completely agree with the author but I have never thought of the bigger picture in this way.

    The city I live in (in the UK) is predominantly white but in the past 10 years or so there has been a noticable influx of Middle Eastern immigrants (since the Iraq war) and of course, the single men meet and date local women. I have noticed before that the women they are with have more often than not have looked like working class women – I think that these days you can’t necessarily tell someone’s class by the way they look but the women in the couples that I have noticed are obviously working class. I have always thought that they have ended up together because the men are not that well off as a result of being forced in to the lower paid and illegal jobs, sending money home to their families etc. so they are going to live amongst and frequent the same places as the locals that are not so well off themselves.

    As Jenna mentioned, cultural differences as a big issue but I can’t imagine that entering these women’s heads when they begin a relationship with a foreigner. I feel as though it’s more ‘raw’ than that, they are firstly attracted to each other because of the differences in the way they look and maybe stereotypical Western attitudes are an attraction for the men – but where I live if the men want to have a relationship with someone they don’t have much of a choice but to date a white woman. Cultural differences will be a major factor in whether the relationship lasts but whether the women recognise any differences as cultural is another thing.

  15. George
    George August 5, 2013 at 4:02 pm | | Reply

    “Do you really think that Western women are totally fine, generally, with cultural expectations held by many Chinese men (not all! I really want to make that clear)?”

    @Jenna Cody:

    The answer is no. However, I still do not see too many white American women dating Asian American men…with emphasis on American….and I am in the DC area.

  16. aiyangxifu
    aiyangxifu August 5, 2013 at 4:31 pm | | Reply

    Well, this author’s conclusion is very similar to Marxism’s idea of united oppressed working class after enlightenment. There is some truth in the idea regarding Non-Asian minority (NAM).

    For Asian, it is quite different story. Statistics and personal experience all indicated that upper class or upper middle class white women are more likely dating and marrying Asian males. Pew Research finding about `increased mixed marriage’ reveals that white women married to Asian males tend to be highly educated and have highest personal income than any other female groups.

    @Psy
    You ask about book of European explorers diaries in Southeast Asia in 1800s. I found one today when I was organizing my book shell. This one is titled “The French in Indo-China”. There were many others which I am not sure I still have them.

  17. aiyangxifu
    aiyangxifu August 5, 2013 at 5:33 pm | | Reply

    Here is an interesting view about Asian dating problem.

    http://lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com/2013/08/05/ny-times-article-about-south-korean-government-matchmaking/

    There is some truth in this kind of view. There is undeniable biological difference which will have behavioral difference. Forcing western cultural value on to Asian countries can produce totally unpredictable result. Human, if not taught by others, often do not know how to reproduce or sexual behavior yet most animals instinctively know what to do. The same can be said for dating or courtship behavior, in some culture, they had lost it or weakened big time through evolution in different environments.

  18. Laura
    Laura August 5, 2013 at 6:52 pm | | Reply

    I come from a working class family, from my father’s side I am the first one attending to University, and the only one by now. From my mother’s side everyone attended university (except grandparents) and they are either teachers or doctors / studying to become doctors.
    I belong more to my father’s family, because is the part of the family that raised me more part of my life so I identify more with them.
    My father started to work when he was 14 years old and he is still working at the same company, Arcelor Mittal, he started when it was a Spanish company, now is owned by the Indian family Mittal. He works in the factory but he started with a pure & hard job down in factory, and nowadays he combines office work with hands on work.
    When my parents divorced we didn’t have time to become homeless cause we moved with my grandma, I was waking up at 4am every day , walking 2km to the train station, taking a train for 1h ,walking another 2km and then attending high school, that was it every day during a couple of years. I had two options, continue in the same school with the same friends (pattern) or lose half a year and start in my village school, my dad had chosen to keep some of the variables stable, my friends so that I didn’t end up suffering a lot with the changes.
    Coming from this work class family has made me stronger, more independent and I believe that they are indeed supporting what I do, as far as it doesn’t hurt me.
    A proof is that last time my father came to China, he left a video in the desktop of my laptop, it was his present, he did a video next to Jinmao Tower (He loves that area) and he talked about life, about us, he ended up saying…:
    “You love Tony
    And I promise you I can see and feel he loves you
    Don’t let this go, you should be together, he will backup you always
    And I will always support both of you”
    He was almost crying, is a very touching video. So that’s my working class father, that survived many bad experiences, from losing his dad when he was only 5, to working long hours at a factory, to …divorce…friends who suicided…no money…

    When Tony talks about his past, when he was little, we have plenty of things in common, the difference is that I never experience hunger.
    Realizing that we both went through a lot helped us to become closer
    Laura recently posted..Blogging holidays

  19. forest
    forest August 5, 2013 at 10:55 pm | | Reply

    Define working class. Are daughters of executives in public companies working class? They grew up in good school districts where Asians are far from few.

  20. forest
    forest August 5, 2013 at 11:21 pm | | Reply

    I am reading the book and it states Vincent Chin and Trayvon Martin are murder victims. While Vincent was beaten to death, 17 year old Trayvon was beating someone shorter than him, the only wound was on his left hand and a single gun shot.
    For that, I suspect Author may not have objective view on the main subject. Just a hunch before I finish the book.

  21. Amanda R.
    Amanda R. August 5, 2013 at 11:29 pm | | Reply

    If this has a role, it’s going to be very small. Chinese men are simply too patriarchal, controlling, and misogynistic (in general) for a Western wife. They want women who are weak and submissive. You aren’t going to find many single Western women in China who fit that description. It takes a hell of a lot of guts to move to a new country, even more to do it alone. The women who have the strength, courage, and adventurous nature to move to a foreign country aren’t going to be the mousy, quiet women that Chinese men want.
    Amanda R. recently posted..China Joy 2013 – Where’s the Freakin’ Door?!?!

    1. Rdm
      Rdm August 8, 2013 at 5:01 pm | | Reply

      Really?

  22. rmzhao
    rmzhao August 6, 2013 at 12:15 am | | Reply

    I’m somewhat agree with Jenna’s comments about cultural differences but I think part of it has to do with attraction. Visiting Taiwan, I found a lot of the men to be quite sexy. They were often well dressed, well built and had an air of confidence to them that I sometimes find lacking in mainland China. Perhaps this sounds shallow or racist, but I think there’s a truth in it for a lot of women. While my opinion has changed in recent years, I never thought I could be attracted to a short man or a guy much thinner than me. I also value a man who has confidence and isn’t afraid to approach me.

    It’s seems like Chinese men are being painted really negatively in the comments. Is it fair? I feel like I’ve meet a lot of decent men in China and who by no means expect a subservient wife who puts up with 第三者. There are misogynists everywhere and perhaps their attitudes are more common or acceptable in some places, but I think there are plenty of Chinese men who have a lot of respect for women.

  23. Allen
    Allen August 6, 2013 at 4:44 am | | Reply

    @Jenna

    “I’ve never in all my time in Asia heard a white woman cite lack of attraction to Asian men from a racial standpoint as the reason for not dating them”

    Not even once? Granted my knowledge on this subject sitting here in the U.S. of A. is limited to reading Western expat blogs and forums, but many of the Western women commenting and writing on said forums don’t seem to be bashful about saying derogatory things about Asian men’s appearance and physical characteristics. A small minority can be quite vicious and often resort to racial stereotypes.

    Could knowing that your signifcant other is Asian be a factor in perhaps those women being less than candid when it comes to perceived attractiveness based on race?

    On a somewhat related note, a few months back I spent (way too much) time reading the Shanghai Expat forum. One “Western” woman’s posts caught my attention. She posted somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 posts and perhaps spent one-fifth of her posts denigrating Chinese men and Asian men in general and three-fourths overall complaining how much it sucked for her to be in China.

    I eventually was irritated enough to waste five minutes to find her picture on another website expecting an Argentine supermodel to justify the arrogance of her posts.

    I’m sorry, but for a borderline racist whose reflection could crack a mirror, this woman’s arrogance was truly astounding when stating how an entire male demographic is unworthy of her.

  24. Bruce
    Bruce August 6, 2013 at 8:46 am | | Reply

    Please do not read books on Chinese men and determine your conclusion. Chinese men like me and many of my Chinese friends do respect women. Our Chinese moms are one of the strongest women that we’ve known. Most of my Chinese friends let their wives hold the money in the families and even let those women have titles to all the homes. Sometimes, the husbands have no titles to any properties for personal reason. It’s the trust thing.

    It’s not true that Chinese men are control freaks. We will advise our women to make the right decisions but not like monitor every steps you make. I still haven’t seen any controlling Chinese men in my group including myself. I’m sorry to say but you women have not met the right Chinese men like us so it’s normal to have assumptions. Once, you’ve met the right person, you won’t go back.

  25. askdsk
    askdsk August 6, 2013 at 10:18 am | | Reply

    I think you also need to look at social class in relative terms. Due to higher living standards in US, an average person ventured into developing country like China might feel himself/herself up a notch on the social ladder. It is true in material sense because you are likely to have more freedom to travel or living in a bigger house growing up. In terms of your inspirations, values, educational achievements and other measurements to place a person in various social classes, this gives many the wrong idea in choosing a partner. I often see people become more choosy. I think it partially explains the rarity of dating between western women and Asian men. A westerner becomes pickier too. However, if you are not in the similar social class growing up, you will most likely run into problems in your relationship. You can’t blame everything into cultural differences. A person might appear to be poorer than you in China, but he is from a higher social class possibly.

    I think Asian men are judged quite harshly on gender issues. If there is more physical attraction, many women don’t only focus on this issue as much. Middle Eastern men are more popular than Asians on dating market, but their culture is even more outdated when it comes to gender roles.

  26. IC
    IC August 6, 2013 at 10:50 am | | Reply

    @askdsk

    To supplement your point, this youtube video explain well about dating.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY&list=PLD43B67F10ACDAD5B&index=1

  27. AG
    AG August 6, 2013 at 11:23 am | | Reply

    People from different classes behave quite differently.

    Underclasses behave similar to animal instinct and choose their mates based on `feeling’, which is physical attraction. The goal of sexual reproduction in biology is rid of genetic mutation load. Physical beauty is sign of low mutation load, which should be given edge to reproduction for sake of healthy gene pool of the speciece. Underclasses are very much into `looks’, not suprisingly.

    Upperclasses are almost different creatures who choose mate not just based on looks also on wealth, social status, intelligence. Their goal is beyond animal instinct. So it is upper class who put other factors above the looks. Keep your offspring at top of social class matter more than the looks. It is nice to be King or Lords. The descendants of such intelligent upper class develop totally different way to choose mate even today.

    So money can give your social status today but can not change your biological classes which are the results of thousands year human civilization. Rich athlete or sport stars are rich men with underclass psychology. No wonder most of them marry super models. Yet intelligent, highly educated men and women often marry some body equally intelligent but not super models. Examples are Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, who marry smart women instead of super models. But Tiger Wood will go afer supermodels.

    Let us put this is simple way. Upperclasses are more likely a `gold digger’ or `status digger’ or `brain digger’. Underclasses are more likley a `cute digger’

  28. AG
    AG August 6, 2013 at 3:05 pm | | Reply

    Also most KKK, Neonazi, or white racist organization members are from working class poor white. They also are proven repeatedly to have lower than average IQ.

    These kind of people who carry contempt for people below themself and hastred for people above themself. So nothing will give them positive change.—Profile of haters or Racists (psychopath).

    However, there are positive people who admire people above themself, and sympathetic for people below themself.—most tolerant people with open mind-Elite. Charity founders.

    Certainly there are also people who admire people betther than themself and have contempt for lower class.- most common people in society.

    Also there are people who only tolerate people of lower class not one above them-communism or radical liberals.

  29. AG
    AG August 6, 2013 at 4:10 pm | | Reply

    Lack of prejudice is one mark or character for social elites.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maslow%27s_Hierarchy_of_Needs.svg

    The best way to detect underclass is whether individuals have preconceived prejudice or judgement. Some people thought material wealth giving them elite status. But nice house or fancy car can not cover up their underclass psychology with all kind of prejudice.

    Non-judgmentalism or open-mind attitude is sign of true elites. In real life, they demonstrate very tolerant attitude toward many thing in this world.

  30. AG
    AG August 6, 2013 at 4:24 pm | | Reply

    In book “Coming Apart”

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/030745343X/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    White americans basically are evolving into two classes: Upper or Under. The middle class is disappearing into either classes. Again, non-judgemental is sign of upper class, supported by maslow pyramid.

  31. Sveta
    Sveta August 6, 2013 at 8:11 pm | | Reply

    I may be late, but my name, ethnicity, as well as my life story and my literary intelligence contributed a lot to me disliking being compared to American or to even mention that I’m “white”. I may be white in color, but not in my heart. I think that’s one of the primary reasons I started going towards Asian men. I thought they might appreciate a girl who’s smart in literature and history, but alas I miscalculated when just about every single guy I meet who happens to be Chinese disappears from my life for one reason or another…
    Sveta recently posted..E-Reading Book Review of #3 Love’s Chance by Tracey Smith

    1. Seck
      Seck August 8, 2013 at 5:05 pm | | Reply

      [removed by moderator as harassing language]

  32. MM
    MM August 6, 2013 at 8:11 pm | | Reply

    Regarding “submissive and weak” women yes there are these women in China however there are these women in every country. From what I’ve seen and experienced Chinese women aren’t submissive and weak they “control” the households and finances, in business (e.g. running a factory) the man is the
    ” face person” he does the deals and the dining etc but it’s the woman who’s in charge and runs the factory, even that’s changed now more and more Chinese women are owning their own factories, business’s and negotiating deals themselves.

    “Patriarchal, controlling, and misogynistic” yes some Chinese men are but men from other Countries can also exert these characteristics.

    If you’re open minded , with an open heart , avoids making “judgments”, embraces differences, embraces new cultures then falling in love with someone “whose not your own kind” is a high possibility

  33. DChang
    DChang August 6, 2013 at 9:50 pm | | Reply

    Hi Jocelyn!

    I’ve really enjoyed your website, since coming across it a couple of months ago.
    (also, I haven’t read the above comments.)

    Coming out of lurking to recommend Frank Wu’s book “Yellow: Racism in America between Black and White.” While it’s more academic and less couple-relationship oriented, it’s a well regarded read on the subject. I think I first heard about the book from AngryAsianMan or from 8asians, I can’t remember which.

    Best!
    dc

  34. David
    David August 7, 2013 at 7:13 am | | Reply

    @Allen…agreed! I have met quite a few such white women in Asia. A few months ago, I wrote about a young white woman who is from Tennessee who freaked out and ran out on her blind date after finding out he was Asian in a South East Asian country and created a scene in the ritzy restaurant. And by the way he is a heir to a multi million dollar business. But for her, she was expecting a white expat as a date. All this idea of Chinese being of a different culture is a good point. However, many white women in America will not date third generation Asian American men even in places such as California…that is a fact and that is racism…many call it preference, I call it a racist preference.

    1. Rdm
      Rdm August 8, 2013 at 5:07 pm | | Reply

      David, you’ve been spewing out that story every time there’s an interracial issue popped up since when?

      Are you the guy in the story?

  35. David
    David August 7, 2013 at 7:17 am | | Reply

    And people like Amanda should get out of China.

    1. Rdm
      Rdm August 8, 2013 at 5:08 pm | | Reply

      Ditto

  36. David
    David August 7, 2013 at 7:31 am | | Reply

    More on working class whites…have a tough time believing that women from this group will date Asians….

    http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/if_republicans_choose_to_become_a_whites_only_party_its_on_them/singleton/

  37. askdsk
    askdsk August 7, 2013 at 8:23 am | | Reply

    Many people who cry foul don’t realize their own ignorance. To denounce a whole culture or group of people is disgraceful.

    Here is a recent article on the issue of gender from Israel – http://www.newrepublic.com/article/114124/israels-orthodox-women-new-face-feminism

    The Book of Common Prayer for years stated that a wife must love, honor, and obey her husband, treating him as her master and lord. Social norms reflect gender mores of the time. To imply a group of people inherently flawed is racist.

  38. Anonymous
    Anonymous August 7, 2013 at 11:40 am | | Reply

    “AG: your idealistic POV about the rich elite is overly optimistic at best, borderline cult worshipping. Have you ever tried getting into a country club? Ever been successful? Charity foundations are usually a means to evade taxes.
    i agree with jenna cody’s POV the most. As an Asian Canadian, I have had lots of success dating in Canada, outside of my ethinicity. I think it’s due to my jovial personality and a good sense of humour. Lots of people I know (relatives, friends, girlfriends) have commented on how stereotypically un-Asian I am…. though I argue back: I speak 2 asian languages better than most of my Canadian-born Asian friends, and it’s not un-Asian to have an open mind.
    as for which class of white women would be more willing to date Asian men, I have dated most from nightclubs, so they range from really rich to working class single moms. i don’t really know

  39. IC
    IC August 7, 2013 at 12:09 pm | | Reply

    @Anonymous

    Arguing with AG with fact and logic, not baseless assumption like most idiots do.

    My social circle is top 1% of Americans in term both income and wealth. Most of them fit the bill very much with incredible intelligence and open-mindeness. Yes, there are some idiots in top 1% like Donald Trump, whoes mind is more like that of underclass instead.

    But arguing with idiots is waste of time anyway. Haters remain haters no mattter what.

  40. askdsk
    askdsk August 7, 2013 at 12:13 pm | | Reply

    “Lots of people I know (relatives, friends, girlfriends) have commented on how stereotypically un-Asian I am”

    I am sorry. As an Asian man, I don’t take pride in these types of statement. I know the commenter clarified he has plenty of Asianness, so ethnicity is no issue. On the other hand, constantly pointing out the problems inside the culture for dating failure is blaming the victim.

    The lack of empathy exist in all social classes. Upper classes tend to turn their back against the victims and blame them for not trying too hard instead of addressing underlining problems. Who benefit the most from the social structure? The answer is obvious.

  41. Anonymous
    Anonymous August 7, 2013 at 12:29 pm | | Reply

    @IC: want statistic and facts? you seriously don’t know that most charity foundations are tax evasion measures? that says more about your knowledge (or the lack thereof) than my idiocy. Here, one fact for you, look up demographics in country clubs.
    But yea, you appear really intelligent by bragging about your rich life and name calling. What do I know, right? I am just a guy who used to work menial jobs like construction, bouncer

    @AG: in what part of my post did i say i was proud of being considered “un-asian”?

  42. askdsk
    askdsk August 7, 2013 at 12:40 pm | | Reply

    @Anonymous
    I quote you to make an argument. Nothing personal.

    I don’t agree when people constantly think culture difference is the problem from dating outside your race for Asians, at least it is not the main factor. Nor do I think you have to change your personality to fit the profiles. In general, people who have better social skills or wider social circle will have more success in dating. But you shouldn’t link that with a particular culture. I am sure you agree as well.

  43. Allen
    Allen August 7, 2013 at 5:16 pm | | Reply

    @David.

    What I wrote was not so much a condemnation of women who have a non-preference for Asian men, but rather there’s no need to be an absolute a-hole about it. I often hear how non-Asian women who are actually open-minded and would consider dating an Asian man simply don’t get approached and asked out by Asians. That is unfortunate and this woman contributes to that.

    Her attitudes towards Chinese women aren’t any better, her many “relationship advice” to the Western men, basically condones “use and dump” and go use the next one. It’s one thing for a Western woman to stay silent and avoid the daunting task of scolding Western men who go to Asia solely with the intention to tap ass, it quite another to encourage them to do so. If that isn’t misogynistic, I don’t know what is.

    I’m suprised Western men who are in meaningful relationships with Chinese women aren’t offended by her vile comments.

  44. forest
    forest August 7, 2013 at 9:07 pm | | Reply

    @Allen – Agree with you that some open minded women were not approached by Asian men.

    We can’t change the behaviors of others around us by staying passive and silent. We can make a difference by man up and reaching out. The moment we appear in public with our girls makes a strong statement.

  45. Rdm
    Rdm August 8, 2013 at 5:14 pm | | Reply

    A Jersey girl who keeps spouting like “What the Fck?” “Who the hell?” every time her temper tantrum kicks in and claim Chinese guys are not worthy?

    I’m CALLING OUT YOU, AMANDA, if you freaking believe

    “Chinese men are simply too patriarchal, controlling, and misogynistic (in general) for a Western wife.”

    GET THE HELL OUT OF CHINA [removed by moderator for offensive content]

  46. askdsk
    askdsk August 9, 2013 at 12:04 am | | Reply

    I want to point out this idea of western woman being more adventurous and independent is also misguided. Given the record number of single Asian girls come to other countries to study and work, I don’t know anyone can claim these girls are less independent to handle challenges. You really need to be careful what group (class) of people you are comparing yourself to feel superior.
    I don’t date a working class woman because I am not sure we have a lot in common. But I try not to call them all stupid or worse.

    @Amanda
    You are a [offensive language removed by moderator].

  47. Sveta
    Sveta August 9, 2013 at 12:11 am | | Reply

    @Seck. If the comment was directed towards me, I don’t think I’m ugly. Some Asian did find me attractive, I dated a Korean guy for two and a half years, and I did kiss some Chinese guys in the past. If they found me ugly, why would they bother kissing and dating me?
    Sveta recently posted..Book Review of Down This Road by Kelli Dawn

  48. MM
    MM August 9, 2013 at 12:28 am | | Reply

    @askdsk

    Why go there and call someone a S….B….? Does it make you feel better? What’s the purpose of it? This is an open forum for discussion; if you agree or disagree then write a valid and intelligent respond but don’t go calling people names.

    It’s not what this forum/blog is about.

  49. Allen
    Allen August 9, 2013 at 12:51 am | | Reply

    The only thing I’m finding ugly is the direction of this thread. You can take offense with some posts and make it known, but don’t end up being worse than the person you had a problem with.

    @Seck, what’s your deal??
    I’ve read Sveta’s other posts regarding “disappearing acts”. Obviously those guys felt attraction, but for whatever reason (which she’s making an effort to understand) didn’t stick around for the long haul.

  50. askdsk
    askdsk August 9, 2013 at 8:27 am | | Reply

    @MM
    An intellect troll is still a troll. To me, it is more of a choice of language when there is no argument to begin with.

    Jocelyn you need to remove comments entirely. Now people are filling in the blanks. I am not complaining.

  51. Bruce
    Bruce August 9, 2013 at 8:41 am | | Reply

    I love it !!!!!!!!!!!!! I need entertainment from you guys.

  52. Rdm
    Rdm August 9, 2013 at 10:00 am | | Reply

    Bruce, participation is more fun than watching. Come and join us.

  53. SBC
    SBC August 9, 2013 at 10:14 am | | Reply

    Here is my opinion

    1. I think in general, educated open minded people with more travel and international experience are more open to the ideas of IR dating. Also if they are not strongly embedded in their culture, they are more likely to take the risk of getting familiar with another culture even if it means challenging some of their own cultural assumptions. I also agree that exposure to immigrants might increase any group’s chances of interracial dating. But I dont think that those who dont believe in IR are that way simply because of priveledge. What about asians growing up in predominantly asian neighborhoods and going to asian schools? What about all the other 200+ countries and middle class there? You’ll find that in other countries the dynamic is flipped, as in, the middle class is lower middle class is more tradition bound (and are naturally limited in choices of their partner, also due to limited access to foriegners) but the upper class are more open to, and have access to multiracial partners.

    2. I will say this only once, but David and other people who think white women “dont want to date asian men” and “whites are racist” whatnot… EVERYONE is sensitive to race. Ask asian guys if they would date foriegn women who are not white. I can guarantee that u ll find more asian guys who refuse to date non white foreign women than you’ll find white women who refuse to date asian men. People have made this into some sort of an issue. Its not. MOST people in MOST races dont consider IR dating to be the obvious choice. May it be because they like their own kind or because they are close minded and driven by stereotype, ALL races have quite a lot of people prone to that thinking. So lets stop making this some conspiracy against asian men and blaming white women for it. And lets stop confounding this with the stereotyping of asian men by “Hollywood in USA” (read, not the whole world). Whining and asking a race to date you is probably going to send that group running in the opposite direction. If people dont want IR… well leave them alone and let them be. If they do, more power to them!!

    3. In terms of race, I think it is important to not confound economic status with racial sensitivity. Not all rich white people have a racial superiority complex, neither do I imagine all middle class white americans are lacking it. But the author raises an interesting point.

  54. Rdm
    Rdm August 9, 2013 at 10:23 am | | Reply

    I could be troll and harassing (so it seems). But if you know my history, I’ve been constructive in commenting. But if someone came with subtle hint of denigrating entire race/sex, I’m not gonna spend my time, educating and dealing even if the posters have their own website/blogs/online diary to talk about their daily tantrum in China.

    I’m gonna hit it out like as it is.

    When the poster “Manny” came in with his grandfather story of WWII in China and how his grandfather enjoyed daily sex life with all those Chinese (China doll, that’s what he used) women, and how it is easy to pick up Chinese girls in his time and how he, Manny, managed to hook up with American Born Chinese in Southern Texas and how he teased to the picture Jocelyn used in her past post where there’s a panty hanging on the door knob as if Jocelyn used hers in the picture. Where is Manny now?

    And it’s perfectly fine for him to post such a subtle yet denigrating post about entire Chinese women since his grandfather time. But when I picked up one particular woman named “Amanda” calling out entire Chinese men as
    “Chinese men are simply too patriarchal, controlling, and misogynistic (in general) for a Western wife.”, nobody here pointed out except David and askdsk stepped up.

    And she might be blogging since when? I don’t give a damn about it. But when you come with a sweeping jibe at entire Chinese men, yes, you bet I’m gonna step up and hit it out like as it is. You can call me troll, but I’m gonna be who I am.

    and in my [presumably deleted] post above, I’m not humiliating entire westerner as a whole. I do appreciate Jenna Cody insightful comment, and others. I’m single-handedly pointing out her only Husband. Is it fair? You’ll be the judge.

    Chinese men Vs a single particular guy

    Who do you want to slap as “misogynistic” or “controlling”?

    Or maybe I could possibly use like all Westerners are “Obese, Greedy”, that’s why they’re not worthy of Chinese men? Does it sounds fair in westerner ears? or Does it even make sense in the first place? I for sure know that it doesn’t make sense at all to collect every westerners as “obese”, but my judgement tells me if US hitting out like “Currency manipulation” without any warrant, I’m gonna hit it out like “You’re freaking idiots!”. I’m not gonna spend my time educating it is not only China manipulating currency, every part of the world does too. Perhaps I’m done a lot more in the past here in Jocelyn’s blog arguing, discussing every time those issues pop up. But now? Yea, you bet I’m not gonna argue and discuss when someone came up with such an instance.

    And you bet, it’s an open forum, even in open forum, Amanda use such a kind word for all Chinese men, I’m hell sure that under the curtains, she will be a lot more talking bad about all Chinese men and I’m sure they will give a hard time when it comes to Chinese men and Western women on the street, like you know what? You could imagine.

    Am I still trolling here, you’d ask. Yes, this is the end.

  55. Rdm
    Rdm August 9, 2013 at 10:36 am | | Reply

    To clarify,

    and in my [presumably deleted] post above, I’m not humiliating entire westerner as a whole. I do appreciate Jenna Cody insightful comment, and others. I’m single-handedly pointing out her [I meant Amanda’s] only Husband. Is it fair? You’ll be the judge.

    the context might be misleading.

  56. George
    George August 9, 2013 at 10:58 am | | Reply

    More Asian women go abroad to study or work from doctors to maids compared to white women, definitely white American women. Asian women, particularly the Filipina women definitely are more independent than your average white women. Very few white Americans travel abroad even to Canada, and many dont even leave their state and I am talking about men and women. Little surprised then..40% of white Americans dont have friends of other races. Heck, I know stay at home white American women in East Asia who rarely speak to their Asian neighbors, and their only contact with the Asians is talking to their Filipina maid. If you have on friends of other races because you live in Mountain Brook, AL, one can understand, but not haveing any Asian friends in China or Singapore after living there for ten years?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/08/friends-of-another-race-reuters-poll_n_3723015.html?ir=Black+Voices

    I am very certain that Amanda is one of them although she lives in China. And I know white British expat women in Asia and Dubai who are funding the anti-Asian and anti-moslen British National Party as well as the UK Independence Party and who fully support the current UK government policy singling out Asian Americans (not American whites) visiting UK and asking them for their papers., ie., racial profiling. Dont like what you hear check out Expat Edna.

  57. David
    David August 9, 2013 at 11:16 am | | Reply

    “I can guarantee that u ll find more asian guys who refuse to date non white foreign women than you’ll find white women who refuse to date asian men.”

    Wanna guarantee? Have you been to Singapore or Malaysia. I will agree it is more with Asian women than Asian men. In fact Indian-Chinese marriages are the fastest growing in Malaysia and Singapore especially among the Christian community. In the Christian church in those countries you will not find segregation. Can you say the same thing about the Christian church in America where white people dominate? I think not. As George says while white expat women who have lived in East Asia have hardly interacted with locals Indian-Chinese marriages are flourishing and the only ones surprised are the expat whites from the UK and the USA.

    @Rdm

    It is called white privilege and white privilege is a one way street. They can go abroad and chase Asian women like Manny seems to be doing, but let a Hong Kong or Singapore Chinese try that with white women in Georgia or Alabama he will be very lucky if he is not hanging from the nearest tree. White privilege is going to Asian countries and working on fat salaries while telling the locals that they should not live and work in the countries of expat origin (eg. UK or USA) because they need to serve their country. Or even better when a white person working in Singapore tells an Indian national working there to go home because his services are needed in India….happens all the time. I for one do not appreciate someone coming to my house and insulting me. What Amanda has done is exactly that.

  58. askdsk
    askdsk August 9, 2013 at 12:40 pm | | Reply

    Maybe there is also higher level of authenticity from working class when they are deprived of white privileges.

    Race is a highly uncomfortable and sensitive discussion. It is also complex. The academic discourse is very different from political one. Please don’t believe all the pundits on MSNBC when statements to help with ratings. For example, when you learned you have privileges of being a model minority, how would your view change?

    When two people stand on equal ground in social and economical scale, you have a better chance to start relationships. When you are a working class, social norms don’t apply to you the same way. Maybe that is also why people mingle more. Chinese sailors in Liverpool and laborers in rural American south were proof of this whole theory.

    @Joecelyn

    I think you will be interested to read a novel from Catherine Cookson – “Color Blind”. A movie was made as well.

  59. Bruce
    Bruce August 9, 2013 at 1:43 pm | | Reply

    I will say this one more time here. I ‘ve said that we have to be united as Chinese /Asians, then other races will respect us. Don’t give others privileges then we will not have these kinds of problems . You always say that Asians make more money but we don’t even get respects from others. Answer: must be united .

  60. forest
    forest August 11, 2013 at 8:20 pm | | Reply

    I think some of us over reacted. What Amanda said about submissive is echo by the guy here. At least, it is an impression or opinion. No need for name calling. Sounds like School yard event to me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcyZnGDdql8

    However, what Bruce said about wife arranges finance is also true. Most of my friends’ families are like that. Not sure why it is a norm for American Chinese. Any one has insides ?

  61. ABC
    ABC August 11, 2013 at 10:08 pm | | Reply

    As an overseas born Chinese, I considered myself half western and half chinese in terms of culture. I agree with the article that working class women are more prone of dating outside of their race, especially white women with black man. We see it all the time, if you go to a working class neighborhood in Buffalo, NY, you see just as many black man with white women as you see them with their own race. However, the same woman who is with a black man will call you a ‘chink’ at Walmart. The main reason, in my opinion is because they are not racist towards black man who they see as being strong, masculine, cool, etc., but they see the chinaman as being the complete opposite. So it’s all based on the physical appearance, rather than the color of skin. Upper class white women, on the other hand, is more likely to see the chinaman beyond his physical appearance, for they tend to have greater ability to appreciate their culture as well, perhaps, through education, travel, etc.

  62. Bruce
    Bruce August 12, 2013 at 10:21 am | | Reply

    You can call Chinese men ” chinks” but you will lose to the “Chinks” in many areas. We don’t look masculine but do not judge a book by its cover. Looking strong, masculine and cool huh? I know a few men are like that on the appearance but lazy like hell. Chinese men have more responsibilities, hardworking and much more considerate . Why do you think all those well behaved Chinese kids coming from? Why are there more Chinese kids doing well in schools and have higher grades than other ethnic groups? Lots of things I won’t mention here. Without guidance from Chinese men, do you think we will have such results? Our Chinese culture will never allow the kids to misbehave or use violence as a mean to settle a conflict. I think most Chinese men like me have lots of frustration , agony , rage etc regarding this American society. That’s why we have to work 2 times as hard in order to surpass others. Chinese /Asian kids have to study 2 times harder due to pressure and discrimination from school / professors etc. I wish Chinese people in America can have a RIOT !! When I use the word ” RIOT”, do you guys still think I’m this weak person ( Chinese man). Most Chinese/Asian men do have these kinds of thinking like me right now but we just won’t express out loud in the open. Ask yourself a question right now. Why Chinese in general push ourselves so hard ? why? We just don’t want to be poor anymore. We don’t want our kids to be poor and be on Welfare in the future. We will only blame on ourselves first before others. Why we have so much blaming games in America but we don’t blame ourselves first?

    In a Chinese family, we have trust through out every aspects of the family. We don’t misuse money like other culture. We do respect our wives!!!!!!!!! and the wives do appreciate how hard their husband work in order to maintain the families. I know a Chinese friend who used to make lots of money yrs ago and his wife didn’t have to work before for over 15 yrs . Now his wife is working and his company is out of business. His wife doesn’t mind at all supporting the family and her husband. All I’m saying is we need to have more and more women like this regardless of race. I’m sicken of people talking bad about Chinese men and Chinese culture when you know S*** about anything. That’s why I only love to talk to knowledgeable people ( you don’t have to be educated). Keep on reading books and watching tv, you will be dumber than ever.

    Bruce

  63. Rdm
    Rdm August 12, 2013 at 11:26 am | | Reply

    @ABC,

    You couldn’t be more right.

    Low class white women couldn’t think above the waistline so they usually end up marrying those Black dudes who could offer their fantasy world until they turn 35.

    Lower middle class women – Since they couldn’t get like Brad Pitt in their lives, they wonder if they could get Wang Lee Hom or Bruce Lee. But they can’t. So they end up looking out for their equally comparable status in their neighborhood. Since they couldn’t match up against those Chinese men in financial matters, education, culture, they’d take a sweeping snide at “Controlling, misogynistic” stick.

    Middle class women tend to hope they could at least bump into Wall Street guys. The fact of the matter is they couldn’t because they inhabit somewhere near Smallville. The only decent guy they could hope for is the guy in their 30s who can’t get a bevy of girls on Maxim’s cover, and been saving money forever. So the rest is the history.

    Upper middle class and Upper class women don’t care about below your waistline. What they care is their rank and their status. Look at the former US Secretary of Energy – Steven Chu.

    @forest,

    You’re right, generalization is way more efficient than name-calling.

  64. Rdm
    Rdm August 12, 2013 at 11:32 am | | Reply
  65. Bruce
    Bruce August 12, 2013 at 12:02 pm | | Reply

    Rdm,

    I went to a wedding similar to this one. It’s a new trend in Los Angeles where they turn a wedding into Cinema . I love this kind of wedding.

  66. askdsk
    askdsk August 12, 2013 at 12:45 pm | | Reply

    This is the famous “Brown Eyes/Blue Eyes” exercise – http://www.janeelliott.com/

    Imagine you have to deal with prejudice based on your personalities. Ideas such as shyness, lack of creativity, and humorless which are used against you and make you lose power and start to question yourself.

  67. Rdm
    Rdm August 12, 2013 at 2:15 pm | | Reply

    Bruce,

    It was one of my friends’.

    askdsk,

    yes, as far as I remembered, there was outrage against that theory testing when it first came out public. Basically, they know it, they don’t want to admit it and don’t want to practice it further. So herein, I don’t think anybody would even bother to look at who the hell is “Jane Elliot” in the first place as long as there is “love” and here is “love”, it’s all fine and dime.

    Like stereotypes against white people. They can’t freaking jump like Blacks.

  68. askdsk
    askdsk August 12, 2013 at 3:35 pm | | Reply

    To follow up with ABC’s observations, working class Asians are predominately first generation immigrants. They will marry among themselves. The later generations gain mobility through education and become middle class. There is a higher chance they move out of those neighborhood than other minority groups. It is certainly not all due to discrimination that they don’t marry other racial groups. What I am trying to say is that working class blacks are not immigrants. But Asians in working class tend to be new comers, which is not likely to marry outside their own kin irregardless race.

  69. amy
    amy August 12, 2013 at 3:54 pm | | Reply

    I am just now reading this post — I have to agree somewhat with the author’s assertion that part of the reason that working-class white women may be a bit more racially progressive is that they are more likely to encounter minorities (especially African-Americans and Hispanics) in their day-to-day lives. I would, however, be hesitant to think that this will apply to the group generally. As a demographic group, those in a more rural environment (at least in my experience) have a tendency to band together and show a distrust of people that are outsiders. I have only read Jocelyn’s post, so I do not know the data sample that the author of the book uses to draw his conclusions, however I have just put this book on my list at Amazon, and I look forward to reading it! As for my own experiences, I also grew up in a middle-class suburban area, and for the most part was surrounded by people that all looked exactly like me. Few minorities lived in my neighborhood, so I can’t say for sure why I have never thought twice about dating a person from a different cultural or racial background as myself. I never felt ostracized, and I can’t say I was really bullied. I wasn’t the popular kid either, but had plenty of close friends and generally was pretty happy. Perhaps it is because we traveled extensively when I was a child, and so were introduced to many different cultures and people. My parents were continually encouraging us to try things that were outside the norm you would find within the confines of our town. For me, it definitely is not a case of having a smaller share of the ‘wages of whiteness’ — I attended a prestigious university, and I have a pretty good career, as did both my parents.

  70. Anonymous
    Anonymous August 12, 2013 at 9:46 pm | | Reply

    I find it ironic that this blog is meant to dispel certain stereotypes about Asian men, yet its members are so willing to over generalize about white males, white females of different casts.
    Funny thing is when called out, its members are so quick to jump guns, resort to name calling, and use a bunch of logical fallacies (ad hominem, ignoratio elenchi, straw man)

  71. ABC
    ABC August 12, 2013 at 11:32 pm | | Reply

    Thanks to RDM for adding insight into my observation (you couldn’t have said it better) and to askdsk for your comments. I like to further add that although I agree that most first generation Asians tend to intermarry in order to maintain their tradition or to comply to their parent’s wishes, there is a large segment of American born chinese that wishes to marry white but cannot. It has nothing to do with immigrants, as stated that blacks fare better because they are not immigrants. This could perhaps be true in America but not north of the border. I’ve got relatives in Canada (Greater Toronto Area), where the majority of blacks are immigrants from the Caribbean, mainly Jamaica. From his observation, and also a finding from a local newspaper, about half of Canadian black men have a white woman as mate. It is fair to say that it is easier for a Jamaican born man to find a white girlfriend than it is for a Canadian born Chinese.

    There are two main reasons attributed to this. First, as mentioned previously, it is the physical appearance. Chinamen in North America is perceived as being lacking below the waistline, which applies to even athletic man like the famous American born Taiwanese basketball player, Jeremy Lin. The general consensus among women who see physical needs as their top priority have the view that Chinamen cannot satisfy them. Many of us, in numerous instances, have been told by white women that we are not their type. They can be our friends and they’ll seek us only when they need help with their homework (in the case of students).

    The second reason, is the culture as perceived by mainstream America. As my cousin put it, at the annual Caribbana festival in Toronto, one can see many Dallas Cowboys Cheerleader type girls with black mates dancing to the beat. On the other hand, at any Chinese New Year festivals throughout North America, one never sees large numbers of football cheerleader types with Chinamen. Put it simply, black culture, especially Caribbean or American is seen as cool, whereas Chinese culture is an acquired taste. I’ve never seen any white women listening to Chinese pop songs.

    I realized that generalization is not the best approach, but all one has to do is to look at the statistics and personal observations.

  72. Allen
    Allen August 13, 2013 at 1:13 am | | Reply

    ^What American Born Chinese refers to Asian men (and himself) as “Chinamen”?? Are you kidding me?

    Given the historical racism towards Chinese associated with that term, that alone makes your claim to be an ABC or an Asian male, suspect.

    And stop obsessing over Black dudes. They have their own (different) racist stereotypes to deal with. As Asian men have to deal with the ones attributed to us (not including you of course, “IF” you’re NOT Asian).

    It’s called the “Three Bears Effect” designed to cripple both groups using opposite negative stereotypes.

  73. askdsk
    askdsk August 13, 2013 at 7:46 am | | Reply

    @ABC
    I don’t know if the story in Canada reflects a general trend. But Jamaica is also a special case. If you are interested, Malcolm Gladwell has explained in an excellent personal story – http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/middleground/gladwell.htm. Carribean immigrants are different from Africans and tend to be more educated too. They all look alike (aren’t we Asians as well).

    I agree with your other observations about culture and physical apperance. However, we shouldn’t think working class women only care about below the wrist line.

    @Anonymous
    If someone can understand the three fallacies, he/she is not working class. I shout out at people to shut them up once in a while. We go off topics to explore. In fact, if someone takes time to read most of the comments, I think Jocelyn does not need to write a blog anymore. Every area is touched upon. You get the idea.

  74. Bruce
    Bruce August 13, 2013 at 9:48 am | | Reply

    You guys always talk about below the waistline all the time! I don’t understand man seriously. Women don’t think like this man. Go ahead ask women around you and see what they say about below the waistline. Let me tell you here that during the first yr of the relationship, couples tend to have sex all the time. After 2nd yr, they will have less sex due to stress and everything surrounding them daily unless they are losers and do nothing except thinking about sex and sex shops. Slap her ass hard and leave a red hand mark on her butt. Pull her hair and pinch her everywhere. You guys are just too soft ! Most western women won’t be attracted to Asian men because of how you carry yourselves. Find out why they are not attracted to you and fix the problem. I bet you that even I look like a dead fish, I can still pick up a woman if I’m single. How you carry yourself is very important ? You have to excite them with something, convo..etc

    Bruce

  75. forest
    forest August 14, 2013 at 12:27 am | | Reply

    Agree with Bruce. How you carry yourself really count.

    I seriously don’t think girls (white girls included) are hard to get, as long as you know how to make them feel comfortable and want to be with you.

  76. askdsk
    askdsk August 15, 2013 at 3:48 pm | | Reply

    Changing your behavior helps to fit in. But your dating choices are still limited.

    Imagine we live in a world that values yellow skin, short and skinny people. We live in an age overt rejection is not political correct anymore, but the same old barriers exist and hidden.

  77. Bruce
    Bruce August 15, 2013 at 7:52 pm | | Reply

    All of you guys have made good points! We just have to work with what we have. You just have to let those women know that you’re good and worth it.

  78. bruce
    bruce August 20, 2013 at 4:27 pm | | Reply

    Update: What the hell are you guys talking about? I just got hit on by a blonde ! She looks really good in glasses. Slim and good looking. She was walking by me with her friend. Her eye contact was crazy. She stopped but I was still walking. And then they stopped and stared at me 120′ away to see if I would talk to them. they didn’t know I’m married though but the hugeee interest was there . She is beautiful. My other married friend got hit on another blonde last night. That’s why I never trust what I read in internet that not one asian guy has no chance with white women. I’m in my early 40’s and I’m Chinese too.
    I’m a very loyal husband .I won’t hurt my wife . Maybe I was wearing my tank top and my muscles and shoulder popping out. Yup so work out you single people!

  79. bruce
    bruce August 20, 2013 at 4:41 pm | | Reply

    I was doing nothing and was looking at my phone for emails. the blonde looked directly at me with lots of interest like she’s going to eat me. yup I’m serious. I had no temptation at all. I guess I talk to people all the time. Listen to me! Women will give you a chance. Just show them.

  80. forest
    forest August 20, 2013 at 9:01 pm | | Reply

    Agree with Bruce, girls do give us a chance. I got hit on as well from time to time.
    One time at crowded subway, a girl was purposefully touching me with her bare arm repeatedly. I ignored her and tried to avoid her as much as I could without making a scene.
    On other time in a shop, a blonde girl smiled at me while I was waiting behind her. I said “hi” and we started a conversation, she offered to help even I didn’t need. She told where she grew up, which school she was attending, who were her family members … just about anything. When I said I got to go, she told me where to find her.

  81. bruce
    bruce August 21, 2013 at 8:51 pm | | Reply

    You have to have something that attracts those women though. Humans are visual beings. Attraction first and then personalities or vice versa. …they will judge you later but it’s ok.

  82. forest
    forest August 24, 2013 at 11:44 am | | Reply

    @Bruce – for once I disagree with you.

    At a vacation place, I witnessed several cases of boys hitting on girls in public. None of the boys are Asians.

    I think there is a degree of attraction and the attraction can grow. If only Asians make more effort in relationship building … I still believe girls are not hard to get, it really depends on how you carries yourself, and how many efforts you are willing to put in.

    Our parents never taught us how dealing with girls, because we were told to put study at highest priority. But life is more than just study and becoming a perfect worker… if you can’t get the girl you really like, chances are you will not get the position you want either. It is all about confident and the art of making connections.

    If you don’t have close female friends (beyond your own race) who will tell you their secrets, you are not making enough efforts in relationship building.

  83. bruce
    bruce August 24, 2013 at 6:21 pm | | Reply

    Forest, I agree. It’s a lot of work and effort usually by the guys.

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